Signs - Jesus - Has the Scripture Been Misread ?

by *lost* 55 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  mP

  @cofty

  Jesus was not a false prophet. I would suggest that take advice from Josephus who said that Titus was the Messiah.

  If you take all that you have written and insert Titus all those claims are true. Titus was a son of God. Vespasian was voted by the Roman senate and made a God, just like many other Caesars. Titus did come before Paul and Peter and that generation of Jesus died. There was great calamity when he destroyed Judea and jersualem for their sins. The sins of the jews was of course rebelling and wanting to be free which for Romans was "wrong".

  If you re read the message about angels and message and replace angels with messenger then that too did happen literally on earth. Old armies did have trumpets and messengers etc.

  The more you look at Jesus message the more it makes sense. Jesus doesnt condemn slave masters, because the Romans wer e the masters, but he tells the slaves to be obedient and content and the masses to pay taxes. Given the rebellious situation the peaceful message of jesus was again exactly what the Romans wanted.

  Jesus and Christians stole the Jewish identity of Jehovah and surplanted him, while the Romans stole Judea, kicked the Jews out and as part of this renamed it Palestine. The gospel of John also punished the rebellious Jews as its diatribes about the jews killing the christ continued to haunt them for thousands of years.

  Everything Jesus said was completely to the benefit of the Romans. The Romans had been controlling people thru religion for a long time. THe office of Pope and the Catholic Church is a continuation of that. Julius Caesar was a Pope before Peter in the original church before it adopted Jesus.
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  rocketman

  Alan F suggested as much in an essay some years ago, namely, that the events of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 were going to happen anyway, and that Jesus was using them to convey the idea that those occurances should not cause one to follow false Messiahs.
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  Vanderhoven7

  Hi Cofty,

  I agree, we cannot ignore the symbolic language in the verses you quote.

  28. FOR WHERESOEVER THE CARCASS IS, THERE
  WILL THE EAGLES BE GATHERED TOGETHER.

  The words are proverbial. Vultures and eagles ascertain where the
  dead body is and come around it to devour. A picture of the
  Roman army, Jerusalem resembling the dead corpse Hos.8:1
  Hab.1:8 The Jewish nation was morally, spiritually, and judicially
  dead. Jerusalem was like a dead putrid corpse once Jesus had
  pronounced the death sentence Mat 23:38 "Your house is left to
  you desolate.." "For" implies a reason for what is said and attests to
  the certainty that the Son of man would come to destroy the city.

  29. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE
  DAYS SHALL THE SUN B E DARKENED, AND THE MOON
  NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, AND THE STARS SHALL FALL
  FROM HEAVEN, AND THE POWERS OF THE HEAVENS
  SHALL BE SHAKEN:

  Most people assume the vivid language must describe the end of
  the world. But notice that this apocalyptic language is preceded
  by the word "IMMEDIATELY". It was immediately after the
  tribulation of those days that the sun would be darkened etc. The
  Jewish nation was about to be darkened; virtually obliterated.
  God, in His righteous wrath was removing the Jewish nation from
  His heavens. As the moon, Judaism would no longer reflect the
  Light of God; its stars, the prophets and Fathers would no longer
  shine for Israel of the flesh.

  QUESTION: Can we be justified in stating that the sun, moon and
  stars are figurative of Judaism and its glories?

  WHEN WE LET SCRIPTURE INTERPRET SCRIPTURE, we
  find the same language in the OT depicting the destruction
  of Babylon , Egypt, Tyre and Idumea.

  Is.13:9, 10 is a prediction of God's judgment on Babylon.
  "Behold the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and
  and fierce anger to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the
  sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the
  constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be
  darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light
  to shine.

  If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such
  figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation
  like Babylon, how much more would not such language be used to
  describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?

  Is.34:4,5 Regarding the destruction of the insignificant nation of
  Idumea, Isaiah writes:
  And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens
  shall be rolled together as a scroll...
  For my sword shall be bathed in heaven; behold it shall come
  down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to
  judgment.

  If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such
  figurative language to describe the downfall of such an
  insignificant nation as Idumea, how much more would not such
  language be used to describe the downfall of the chosen nation of
  Israel?

  Ez.32:2, 7,8 Ezekiel's prediction of God's judgment on Egypt
  incorporates similar vivid language.

  "Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of
  Egypt...And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven,
  and I will make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with
  a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright
  lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness
  upon thy land, saith the Lord God.

  If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Ezekiel uses such
  figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation
  like Egypt, how much more would not such language be used to
  describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?
  Acts 32:16-21 Is.19:1 Ps.97:2,3 Mat.26:64

  OF COURSE THIS LANGUAGE CAN AND DOES APPLY TO ISRAEL.

  Dan.8:10-11, speaking of the conquest of Rome over Israel, says:
  And it (one horn) waxed great, even to the host of heaven;
  and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground,
  and stamped on them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince
  of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the
  place of the sanctuary cast down. (See also Jer.4:26 Mt.26:64
  Mat.16:28)

  "The Jesus we see in the Gospels, and especially in Matthew’s own account, regularly envisaged events of judgment and vindication which were to come about in the generation to which he was sent. The cross, the resurrection and ascension, and the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 were all such events. Jesus invested these events with a cosmic and theological significance beyond what would have been readily obvious to a casual bystander."
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  The following is an excerpt from The Watchtower of May 1, 1999 (p. 11,12)which contains some elements of sound interpretation. True, they go on to blow it with their dual fulfilment theory by interjecting 1914...but at least they began well.

  In the years leading up to 66 C.E., Christians would have seen many of the preliminary elements of the composite sign being fulfilled-wars, famines, even an extensive preaching of the good news of the Kingdom. (Acts 11:28; Colossians 1:23) When, though, would the end come? What did Jesus mean when he said: 'This generation [Greek, ge.ne.a'] will not pass away'? Jesus had often called the contemporaneous mass of opposing Jews, including religious leaders, 'a wicked, adulterous generation.' (Matthew 11:16; 12:39, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36) So when, on the Mount of Olives, he again spoke of "this generation," he evidently did not mean the entire race of Jews throughout history; nor did he mean his followers, even though they were "a chosen race." (1 Peter 2:9) Neither was Jesus saying that "this generation" is a period of time.Rather, Jesus had in mind the opposing Jews back then who would experience the fulfillment of the sign he gave. Regarding the reference to "this generation" at Luke 21:32, Professor Joel B. Green notes: "In the Third Gospel, 'this generation' (and related phrases) has regularly signified a category of people who are resistant to the purpose of God. . . . [It refers] to people who stubbornly turn their backs on the divine purpose." *

  The wicked generation of Jewish opposers who could observe the sign being fulfilled would also experience the end. (Matthew 24:6, 13, 14) And that they did! In 70 C.E., the Roman army returned, led by Titus, son of Emperor Vespasian. The suffering of the Jews who were again bottled up in the city is almost beyond belief." Eyewitness Flavius Josephus reports that by the time the Romans demolished the city, about 1,100,000 Jews had died and some 100,000 were taken captive, most of those soon to perish horribly from starvation or in Roman theaters. Truly, the tribulation of 66-70 C.E. was the greatest that Jerusalem and the Jewish system had ever experienced or would ever experience. How different the outcome was for Christians who had heeded Jesus' prophetic warning and had left Jerusalem after the departure of the Roman armies in 66 C.E.!
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  Phizzy

  We have no proof that Jesus actually uttered any words that were fulfilled in 70 C.E The words in Matthew are put into the mouth of "Jesus" by the writer or writers of Matthew to make Jesus seem a credible prophet.

  All we can do with assurance, is say as Cofty does, the bits that Jesus is supposed to have said about his return did not come true.

  We can conclude then that the words of "Jesus" are not to be trusted.
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Allow me to s ummarize my beliefs about Matthew 24 so you know where I'm coming from .

  The Disciples questions : came in the light of Jesus' startling revelation of temples' destruction,

  1. When will this happen?

  2.What is the sign of your parousia and end of the world/age?

  Time Text: Matthew 24:34 This generation ( houtos genea) I see as the people of Christ's day or era alone. So I believe all, not just some, of the events described in verses 1 – 35 occurred in the first century exclusively and have nothing to do with our day.

  The Sign Text:Matthew 24:15 Luke's account associates the Abomination of Desolation with the Gentile armies that would surround Jerusalem and eventually destroy the temple totally: (Luke 21:20) “When you see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know the desolation thereof is near. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains.” ( Dan 9:26, 27)

  Timing of the Flight: Christians, based on these instructions, were to flee from Jerusalem and Judaea to the mountains "immediately after the tribulation of those days" and thereby escape the desolation of Jerusalem in 70 AD.Mat. 24: 16-21

  Plight of the Jews who didn't heed Jesus' instruction to flee is described in Luke 21: 21-24
  (either killed by sword or scattered amongst the nations)

  Times of the Gentiles: to me indicates the duration of time for the Gentiles to tread Jerusalem underfoot...which was 3 1/2 years or 42 months as stipulated in Revelation 11:2

  But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months . Exactly the length of the seige and overthrow

  What about the disciples second question? What would signal the parousia and when would the world end?

  Jesus warned not to expect his parousia, or his second presence during the tribulation associated with 70 A.D. Don't believe it. The parousia will be dramatic, worldwide & no secret. Mt.24:23-27

  Matthew 24: 1-35 material stands in stark con tr ast with Matth ew 24: 36-44 (the latter dealing strictly with the parousia (Christ's second personal and glorious visitation at the end of the world).

  Matt 24:1-35 Matt 24: 36 - end
  __________ __________________

  Local, Jerusalem,Judea,Temple Worldwide: Lu.21:35

  Abnormal Times: calamities Normal Times: Marrying, working in fields etc.

  Specific signs precede No Signs Given

  Timing Anticipated Lu.24:33 Anticipation Impossible 24:44

  These Days Mt.24:22 That Day Mt.24:36

  Saints to flee, Sabbath concerns No running necessary; Saints taken
• 

  mP

  @rocketman

  The false messiahs for the Romans were the rebel leaders who were encouraging and leading the jewish people to fight against the occupation. Jesus was again using religion to tell the people to accept their masters becaue it was gods will.
• 

  mP

  @phizzy

  We have no proof that Jesus actually uttered any words that were fulfilled in 70 C.E The words in Matthew are put into the mouth of "Jesus" by the writer or writers of Matthew to make Jesus seem a credible prophet.

  All we can do with assurance, is say as Cofty does, the bits that Jesus is supposed to have said about his return did not come true.

  We can conclude then that the words of "Jesus" are not to be trusted.

  mP:

  Not quite. FOr some reason all the worlds great religions are mostly about someone claiming their right to rule. Christians believe in the son of God, Muslims have two factions fighting over who succeeded Mohammad, Jews are waiting fo the warrior Messiah and so on. Then we have modern equivalents in the Pope the prince of King of catholics, Queen Elizabeth the head of the Anglican church etc.

  My point is that all religion is about that its a tool to manipulate the masses. Jesus didnt care about slaves and the poor, he was doing the work of the Romans and trying to passify them. The Romans didnt destroy Israel for nothing, they destroyed it because they were big trouble.
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  Doug Mason

  Matt 24 does indeed warn the disciples against seeing wars, etc., as signs. They are not told to beware of wars but to beware of deceivers. Matt 24 does not say "huge wars", "large loss of life", "lots of nations", "long wars", "many earthquakes with large loss of life". Also, wars, earthquakes (no volcanoes?) and such have always existed. Wars and earthquakes are not portents of good tidings.

  Later in the Matthew discourse they are again warned against listening to deceivers saying he has come in the secret place or in the desert, and later still parables are given that again say things will carry on as normal (unaware in Noah's time) and it will happen when no one expects (midnight, long after the day had ended at sunset).

  The people who wrote Matt 24 had heard Paul say he was expectiing the Coming would take place in his own lifetime; the people who wrote Matthew (aafter Paul's death) tried to dampen the expectation (they were allied to Peter, not to Paul). And later the guy who wrote Revelation aimed it specifically to people of his own time, saying it was going to happen "soon". Even Jesus is supposed to have said it would happen within the time of his own generation.

  At every age since then people have warned of an imminent divine intervention. The score - a Big Fat Zero.

  Doug
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  cassuk11

  Christianity has denied the Messiah for 2000 years. Because when he gave the signs of the last days he was talking to those people standing right in front of him at that time.So when he said "truly i tel YOU ( the disciples standing right in fornt of him, not us,) some of you will NOT die until you see the son of man coming on the clouds". Also "truly i tell YOU (the disciples who were there) you will not finish going through all the tribes of Israel before the son of man COMES in his Kingdom". Two examples of , who he was talking to and when. He said all things would be accomplished in that generation, the 1st century generation. So, all things have been fulfilled already 2000 years ago and we do not believe it. The True Church, cannot be seen, it is spiritual, it is not made by human hands,.There is no physical representations of the heavenly spiritual Kingdom. It dwells in the hearts of those who beleive, have entered into it spiritually.