There are no non-annointed Christians (Great crowd)

by Hortenzie 21 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Hortenzie
    Hortenzie

    This is a direct quotation from WT July 15 article "Feeding many through the hands of a few" par. 13:

    "Remember, in his prophetic illustration of the wheat and the weeds, Jesus warned that a newly planted field of wheat (anointed Christians) would be oversown with weeds (imitation Christians). The groups, he said, would be allowed to grow side by side—undisturbed until the harvest, which would come at “a conclusion of a system of things.” (Matt. 13:24-30, 36-43)"

    The way I read it is that there are only two groups:

    1 - true Christians who are all annointed (as the Bible and most Christian churches teach)

    2 - immitation Christians

    There is no third kind of plants in this field. So where does the non-annointed Great crowd fits???

  • St George of England
    St George of England

    I think this Great Crowd idea came from Rutherford in the early 1930's when he realised that 144,000 as a literal number must be about full up.

    So he decided that the Other Sheep (John 10:16) and the Great Crowd (Rev 7:9) were one and the same group. These would live on earth, not go to heaven. This was a change from Russell who thought the GC were a second class group of heaven bound individuals. No proof of course.

    George

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    This is complex. The GB is now cast into spiritual darkness and is apostte, plus many truths were hidden from them. But for those who want the accurate understanding here it is. I'll try to be brief, but that has proven a difficult thing for me to do, so we'll see.

    Okay. First, the parable of the wheat and weeds, like many others, is a reference to the JW organization, who are the true temple sect. It was infiltrated with weeds, representing Freemasonry, early on, including the idea that Christ would not come in the flesh as well as all that pyramidology, etc. This was in the organizations infancy, and thus before it was seen as an oranization or new religion. But when Russell died, Rutherford started promoting him as the "faithful and wise servant" and the "angel from the congregation of Laodicea", thus promoting creature worship. So it was clear the organization was corrupted by "weeds", even though many other teachings were clearly more correct than what you'd find in Christendom. So this is the point where it was observed in the parable that there were wheat and weeds growing together, early, when the organization was just beginning to grow. The choice was to separate the wheat out or allow the two to grow together until the "harvest" which was when Christ would return to gather the sheep.

    Thus the parable of the "sheep and goats" also is a specific reference to the WTS at the time Christ would arrive, which was during the "last hour" or the "12th hour." But also note that the "man of lawlessness" would have to be revealed before Christ returns. (2 Thess 2:4)

    The parableof the vineyard workers is also specifically about the WTS! But it gives us some chronology to fulfill. The workes work for 11 hours. Each hour is 7 years since a half hour is 3.5 years. So the work in the vineyard occurs from 1914 to 1991, a period of 77 years (11 x 7 = 77). The workers are paid during the "last hour" or the 12th hour from the last to the first, which is a period from 1991-1998. Now, this prophetic parable shows us where the so-called "other sheep" or earthly class come in. You see, starting with the 3rd-hour workers, the payment for the work was not stated. That is, they were not promised the "penny", a day's wage, that the first-hour workers were told they would receive. The "penny," of course, represents the invitation to heaven. So this parable shows there was to be a two-class system among the witnesses, starting with the third hour workers through the 11th hour workers. That is, a group of workers who were not promised nor expecting that "penny". The third-hour workers would thus show up after 21 years into the work and thus in 1935. 21 + 1914 = 1935. As we all know, 1935 was when the official "earthly class" was recognized. So the Bible does confirm there would be two groups within the organization, from 1914-1991, which we recognize as the heavenly class and the earthly class.

    BUT! Note that once the workers begin to be paid, which would be from the last to the first during the 12th hour fro m1991-1998, that ALL the workers get the penny! So this is a very, very important point. That is, while indeed, there was an "other sheep" class that thought they would get eternal life on the earth and not heavenly life, represented by the "penny", it turns out the "other sheep" class are invited to heaven after the work is finished since they are given the penny as well, to the shock of the first-hour workers. Therefore, it turns out that there really was only one class after the work was done, which was the heavenly class, since everyone gets the penny! So the "other sheep" class were invited to heaven after 1991 if they were paying attention!

    But this also means, technically, the earthly class is not really the "other sheep." Remember, once Christ returns and starts separating the sheep from the goats, the "little flock" is the result from this separation. This "little flock" represents the true "wheat" in the WTS. This little flock is removed and joins the "other sheep not of this fold" which is a much larger group of anointed ones or those of the heavenly class! These all become "one flock, and one shepherd."

    Now, if the GB is actually the "evil slave" thus representing the goats who are abandoned by Christ when he arrives, then the question is where are the "other sheep"? Where do they come from? Well, if the GB is truly the "evil slave" and the "sluggish slave", the parable of the 10 slaves who are given funds to do business for the master, confirms that the WTS is just one of many other "ministries" tha were invested in to gather sheep! The evil slave is the only one that did not increase the master's belongings! So when we compare the parable of the little flock being taken out of the organization and joining the "other sheep not of this fold", it parallels how the master takes the coin from the evil slave and gives it to the slave that had a ten-fold increase! This is the "little flock" being removed to join the "other sheep" which were gathered by the slave that had the 10-fold increase! So the "other sheep" are those gathered by the largest ministry or slave organization! So where is it?

    Well, here comes the twist. The WTS, being the "temple organization" though a mixture of wheat and weeds, is the only PUBLIC organization of anointed ones. The other organizations of anointed ones are secret or underground organizations. Note that in Revelation, the woman who gives birth to the Christ when Satan is kicked out of heaven, is hidden in the "wilderness", "away from the face of the serpent." (Rev. 12) So the reality is, the other slaves sent out form secret organization and are not public as is the WTS. These secret societies cannot be seen by Satan. But Satan does see some of the anointed who are called the "remaining ones of her seed", note:

    15 And the serpent disgorged water like a river from its mouth after the woman, to cause her to be drowned by the river. 16 But the earth came to the woman’s help, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river that the dragon disgorged from its mouth. 17 And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus."

    So we see that the primary body of anointed ones, represented by the woman, cannot be seen by Satan and are made up of secret societies. But some indeed can be seen by Satan, who are public and called the "remaining ones of her seed" and this represents the public anointed onces of the temple sect, who are among JWs!

    So what happens is that the "little flock" who are the true wheat and the sheep of the now apostate WTS are removed from the public organization and are brought to the "other sheep" of one of the secret societies! But this does not necessarily mean they are physically removed, though some are. When you are in a secret society, you can't tell who is in and who is out. So some of the "little flock" of the JWs simply remain witnesses, only they secretly belong to a secret society of anointed ones. This reflects also the context of another parable, that of the "10 virgins." These 10 virgins also represent the anointed of the WTS. All of them nod and fall asleep and their lamps grow dim as far as understanding about the Christ. But when a call in the night announces the bridegroom as arrived, which is at the very end of the 12th hour, and thus after 1998, when the first-hour workers were to be paid, and thus the original "anointed ones" of JWs, then the wise virgins get their lamps burning and can see where to go to join the true messiah. But the five foolish virgins don't have enough oil! The wise virgins, though, don't give a single drop of that oil to the foolish virgins and tell them to "take a hike!" (oops, I made that up!), I mean, they tell them to go and get their own oil. Thus the five wise virgins, who would make up the "little flock" and who join the secret socities of other anointed ones, the "other sheep" do not tell the five foolish virgins they have done so! So you have at this point the separation of the wise and foolish virgins, which is the same separation of the sheep and goats and the same separation of the wheat and weeds! But this separation is secretive! It's not public!

    Now all that covers the anointed. I don't want to promote the chronology here, but again, the "man of lawlessness" has to be revealed before the 2nd coming, and that happens during the "last hour" and thus between 1991-1998. But it must occur early in this hour since the master does arrive and starts to pay the workers from the last to the first during this hour. So just for the record, the GB was "disfellowshipped" by Jehovah and thus told they were the "man of lawlessness" in a letter delivered on November 10, 1992. The second coming occurred exactly 45 days later on December 25, 1992. When Christ arrives, he ends the Lord's Supper, which occurs in the middle of the 70th week. The 70th week is from 1989-1996. The mid-week passover is on April 6, 1993. So from passover of April 6, 1993 until the Fall of 1998 is when the master begins to pay the workers. During this time, the faithful earthly class of the WTS are now invited into the heavenly class and given the penny! Then, at the veery end of the hour is when the first-hour workers get paid. This is when they hear the call in the night that the Christ has arrived. Thus this is when the Christ becomes public. That is when I announced I was the Christ. The "wise virgins" could see that I was the Christ because they had the "extra oil" and they then joined the secret banquet and wedding feast. The five foolish virgins could not see this or accept this and thus rejected me as the Christ because they could not see scripturally that I was the Christ. But now they have started to return with their lamps burning and they can see that I must be the Christ, but it is too late, the door has been closed and their seats in the kingdom have been taken. So that's the last bit of the chronology to consider, when the call goes out that the Bridegroom has arrived. The Christ arrives in 1992 but does not become public and open to the public "little flock" until the end of that hour, which was the Fall of 1998. At that point, half the anointed, the five "wise virgins" are inducted into the "other sheep" class who are made up of many secret, that is, non-public anointed ones.

    It should be noted at this point, as well, that the 144,000 are ALL JEWS, 12K from each of the 12 tribes. That's another long discussion. But as Isa 6:13 points out, the root of the olive tree remains Jewish. Thus some of the Jews, a small remnant, make up 1/10th of the kingdom, which is the root. That means if 1/10th is the root and they number 144,000, then the gentile part of the olive tree must represent 90% of the tree and thus 1,296,000! Thus the total number of anoitned ones is 1,440,000! Not just 144,000.

    Okay, that's the basics! That explains what really happened. BUT...

    THE "OTHER SHEEP" thus have nothing to do with the "GREAT CROWD"!! That is, while there is indeed a limited heavenly class of 1,440,000, these are king-priests to somebody! Thus the "great crowd" that is seen surviving Armageddon, indeed are an earthly class. Keep in mind that Christ himself returns in the flesh and joins the other anointed ones! In fact, since the woman, who represents the secret societies of anoined ones is seen giving birth to the messiah, it means that Christ himself was originally a member of those secret societies! Christ takes up the body of one of his followers at the second coming. That's how he becomes flesh at the 2nd coming. He cannot use his original, but perfect body, since that was given up in sacrifice. Point being, Christ along with all the other anointed ones are all in the flesh when Armageddon comes. These become king-priests to those chosen to survive Armageddon, but who are not part of the heavenly class! Basically, based on the Holocaust, which was the first "great tribulation" that was cut short to save a remnant of the "holy ones" which is a reference to the natural Jews, since two-thirds were to pass through the fire and be exterminated (Zech 13:8), then likely that same ratio will apply to the gentiles. Thus two-thirds of today's population will not enter the kingdom. But that also means 1/3 will. I don't think the population is at 9 billion yet, but let's say if that were the case, then you have about 3 billion who will survive Armageddon and live for 1000 years under Christ's rule, assisted by his fellow king-priests of 1,440,000!

    SO IN REVIEW: The "wheat and weeds" that are separated is the same reference to the separation of the "sheep and goats," which does not occur until the "harvest" period. The work in the vineyard is from 1914-1991, thus the separation does not occur until after that, when Christ arrives. the 1914 date for the 2nd coming is wrong, based on the error of 607 BCE for the fall of Jerusalem. The corrected date is 529 BCE and thus Christ must arrive in 1992. Note that 1992 occurs after the end of the work which ends in 1992 and thus the time for the harvest occurs during the "last hour" which is from 1991-1998. Since the first-hour workers are paid last, they would not be paid until 1998. This harvesting work is completely secret until that point. But the first-hour workers are the public anointed ones of JWs and that is when the Christ becomes public. At that time, is when the separation of the wise and foolish virgins occurs. Only the wise virgins with the extra oil are able to recognize the true Christ because they have the extra oil. The foolish virgins are sent off to get their own oil since the wise virgins do not give them a drop. This is the time when the "little flock" joins the "other sheep" of secret anointed ones. But the five foolish virgins are not aware of this. The five foolish virgins represent the weeds who are abandoned by Christ. Thus the GB is now the head of a totally apostate organization.

    Finally, we have learned that the "other sheep" are not the same as the "great crowd." We also learned that the "earthly class" which appears at the end of the third hour and thus in 1935 and who join the work until the 11th hour which ends in 1991, are all invited into the kingdom! That is, they are all given the penny! There is plenty of room, since the gentile anointed ones number 1,296,000! The Jews number 144,000. The true wheat and sheep, which are the wise virgins of the WTS are the "little flock." The "other sheep" are those secret anointed ones who are gathered by the other faithful slaves sent out. This is the time the coin is taken from the "evil slave" and given to the largest secret society of anointed ones, the slave with the 10-fold increase. What remains are the weeds and the goats which become the now paostate "evil slave" organization, which is the current state of the WTS! Right now, the "foolish virgins" are starting to be able to see who the true Christ is. They are getting their lamps burning. They are beginning to see that the evidence points to 529 BCE as the true date for the fall of Jerusalem and thus that Christ must arrive in 1992. They can see he must be in the flesh. They have always expected he would be black even since 1998 since they depict the "sign of the son of man" in the Revelation book! But it is too late now for them to get into the kingdom! That is where we are in the timeline. The foolish virgins are beginning to see that I'm the true Chirst. This is what happens just before Armageddon.

    When Armageddon occurs, which is the second "great tribulation", the first being the Holocaust, then two-thirds of the general population will not survive to enjoy the 1000-year reign of Christ. Just as two-thirds of the Jews died in the Holocaust, only one-third of the population will be chosen to enjoy the millennium. But that's several billion people! It is these that make up the "great crowd" who will be served by the king-priests who are on the earth with Christ.

    Here is proof the WTS knows about the "sign of the son of man" and expected Christ in the flesh as a black man as early as 1998!

    faceinhand

    Okay, that was pretty short, right? DOH! Anyway, that explains everything and how it works for the most part. Ask any questions and I'll expand on it.

  • prologos
    prologos

    the other sheep are gentile anointed christians cirka cornelius.

    of the billions of partakers only few will be close to christ at the father's behest.

    the sealing started at pentecost an ends prior to armageddon. so there were unsealed christian way back when. peter: we are awaiting a new earth.

    christians are askedto die a sacrificial death: they have to sacrifice what jesus sacrificed. life in perfection in paradise.

    wt is wrong on all counts from cornelius on.

  • prologos
  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    Hortensia:

    The Society takes the phrase, "sons of the kingdom" to refer only to the 144,000. It is interesting to look at the WT articles that refer to this parable. No proof is ever offered to prove a connection between the "wheat" and the 144,000. The only "proof" ever offered by the WT is simple assertion.

    I posted some research here in reference to the wheat/weeds parable and its comparison with Rev 14. (See my post # 543) There are definite language links in Rev 14 that prove that others, besides the 144,000, are of the "wheat." But the NWT, for all its self-proclaimed accuracy, fails to bring out the difference in meaning of the two words describing the two different harvests in Rev 14. And the picture related to this in the RC book is little more that a lie.

    Take Care

  • oppostate
    oppostate
    Ask any questions and I'll expand on it.

    No! Lars! Please no! No questions here no need to expand. Thank you very much.

    Actually didn't even read the stuff you pasted. Long posts are too tedious and un-readable, somehow off-putting even.

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58
    OPPOSTATE: Actually didn't even read the stuff you pasted. Long posts are too tedious and un-readable, somehow off-putting even.

    I know! Even I can't stand to read some of my own posts! But there is a purpose to the long-windedness! It's even an "inside joke" in the Bible that says that Christ strikes the nations with the LONG sword of his mouth. What does it mean by LONG sword? Well, obviously the sword is critical debate and critical truth of god's word, but a LONG sword means long-windedness. So the Bible teases me that I tend to be long-winded.

    But actually, when I post I tend to think of writing an article rather than some quick read. So I just can't resist covering many related topics related to one simple topic.

    But also to be honest, it is based on past experience. I've found that it makes a difference if you are speaking in CONTEXT and if you're speaking out of context. That is, if I direct a post to JWs, and I mention 1914, I don't have to explain much. But if I'm talking to a non-JW audience, I have tro explain about 1914 and what it means to JWs before making my point. So the broader the audience, the longer the post.

    So, really, I often think the target audience are those who don't know hardly anything about the topic so I have to fill in a lot of background, which makes the posts long and boring. But ultimately, I figure it is beter to give too much information than too less, so....

    Plus, there is a matter of priorities. If you thought this information meant LIFE ITSELF, then you'd want as much information as possible! I have an obligation to provide this information while the opportunity is there. Thus as the Bible says, some "Took no note until the Flood came and swept them away." So: "The posts were too long and boring" is not going to be a valid excuse on Judgment Day.

    Lots of people want things simple and direct and easy and quick. But from my vantage point of being the Christ, I'm thinking, "well, do I really want this type of person in my kingdom?" Or someone like the "wise virgins" who are actually in tune and have their priorities straight? So I tend to lean toward providing more detail for those who will be saved rather than to those who will be lost.

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    THEY TOOK NO NOTE UNTIL THE FLOOD CAME AND SWEPT THEM AWAY...

    I'm providing the light. I'm providing the information. "I was just too busy with other things at the time" will not be a valid excuse on Judgment Day. Trust me.

  • ÁrbolesdeArabia
    ÁrbolesdeArabia

    I agree with Lars58, the GB have been cast away by lord Jesus Christ as Apostates for riding the "Wild Beast" and all their hypocrisy. The latest article in the July 15, 2013 magazine is more proof JWs are holding tight to the Leaning Tower of Brooklyn!

    The gapping holes in their reasoning and conjecture with no Bible backed reasons are here for all to see. Lars58, why will the Witnesses accept this new teaching without noticing they believe in a Rapture and acknowledge Jesus never gave them his "domestics". Lars58, when did God tell you, you were his prophet on Earth and how was it explained to you?

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