It gets better. Part II of "Apostates are blown out of the water"

by never a jw 36 Replies latest jw friends

  • never a jw
    never a jw

    Just a recap.

    I posted a thread yesterday about an exchange of e-mails with a well known and respected elder and C.O. sibstitute in a Spanish circuit somewhere in the U.S. The man is about 50, raised in the truth, belongs to a family where all men are at least elders. He is proud to have forsaken his dream of becoming a doctor to serve Jehovah. Loved and respected by thousands.

    I asked if he could respond without resorting to ad hominem attacks to dozens of issues raised by apostates. His response was actually more ad hominem attacks.

    The following e-mails are the continuation of our exchange until the very last one, 2 hours ago. I haven't responded yet. What would you respond?? How do you handle the unbelievable arrogance?

    My response Mr. Elder, You missed the point altogether. My email was not interested in defending apostates' character or their way of life. I reiterate my question: Do they have valid arguments regarding the dozens of issues they have raised against the WT? Without resorting to attacks to the messenger, can you argue successfully against their message regarding 587 vs 607, the U.N. debacle, medical directive inconsistency with doctrine (blood fractions), Bible translation, Bible interpretation, history revisionism, misquoting, quoting out of context, quoting from questionable sources, double standards (Malawi vs. Mexico), unfairness of shunning against those who were raised in the truth, and baptised at a young age, but later disagree with WT doctrine, etc, etc.. I believe this is the fourth or fifth time you avoid a direct and a specific question. I have to assume that you don't have a good answer.

    His response

    Dear Never a JW,

    I do not have a good answer to those questions because I have not taken the time to study them in detail.

    I have, however, many times studied similar issues in detail and have always arrived at the same conclusion: they boil down to matters ofopinion that cannot be unconditionally proven true or false. That is the state of things.

    This may sound like I'm avoiding the issue, and I am, in a sense. But I have a good reason for it.

    To me, the evidence that the Bible is the Word of God is so overwhelming that I choose to devote my energies to understanding it better, and gaining a closer relationship with God rather than spending that time looking into the issues you mention. Time is limited, and, to use a quote think I used before: "If you would love life, take care of how you use your time. For time is the stuff that life is made of."

    They say some people cannot see the forest for the trees. I consider many of these issues to be the trees, and I will not allow them to cloud my clear thinking ability, just as you will not allow the Watchtower publications to cloud yours. And that is as it should be.

    I know you will find fault with something I have written above. And that is as it should be as well.

    My response

    Mr. Elder, As an avid student of the WT history and doctrine, especially anything related to the 1914 prophecy, I can assure you that most arguments don't boil down to opinion. But if you are avoiding the issue "for a good reason" I must give it a rest.

    Just like in the Good Brahmin story by Voltaire, there are people today whose sole purpose is the pursuit of happiness. You may be able to handle that kind of life. I can't. Principle and truth are more important to me.

    [I added the story of the good Brahmin to the email, but I don't add it here to make the post more readable. http://www.philosophicalsociety.com/Archives/Voltaire's%20Story%20Of%20The%20Good%20Brahmin.htm]

    His response Dear Never a JW,

    I wish you would not consider my avoiding some subjects as a lack of desire for truth orprinciple. I am completely dedicated to these.

    I realize now that one of the sources of our disagreements is that you are in pursuit truth, whereas I feel sure that I have found it.

    Once we are thoroughly convinced we have arrived at the truth, further searching would not only be fruitless, but and we may even be led, due to the enthusiasm of discovery, to dislodging the truth we have correctly acquired.

    "Make sure of all things: hold fast to what is fine."

  • Dismissing servant
    Dismissing servant

    Once again; Cognitive dissonance! It is so obvious. You are scaring the sh*t out of him. Deep inside he knows....things he never will admit to himself.

  • Sulla
    Sulla

    What else is there to say? He just told you that it doesn't matter whether those issues raised make valid points or not. Valid / not valid, true / not true, doesn't matter.

    Why? Well, you answered the question already, didn't you? Large, high-profile family, deep in the JWs, loved and respected by thousands, already made significant sacrifices for the religion. Against that, you offer up the idea that 607 B.C. is wrong? To such a fellow, what could possibly be more irrelevant? Hell, if you were in the same position, I bet you'd be tempted to thing the same way; I know I would.

  • man oh man
    man oh man

    Once we are thoroughly convinced we have arrived at the truth, further searching would not only be fruitless, but and we may even be led, due to the enthusiasm of discovery, to dislodging the truth we have correctly acquired.

    The Truth that really is Truth can not be dislodged. Period.

    "Make sure of all things: hold fast to what is fine."

    He admits basically that he does not live by this principle!

  • darth frosty
    darth frosty

    Maybe you should try a different tact

    instead of trying to pin him down on WT falsehoods hmm...i was going to say hit him with biblical inaccuracies but really whats the point?!?

    What are you trying to accomplish in your discussion with this bloke?

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    He thinks the lies and commercialized BS the WTS. spews out are things that are fine and spiritual.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Once we are thoroughly convinced we have arrived at the truth, further searching would not only be fruitless.

    A corrupt organization creates corrupt people supporting it, this logical is it not ?

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    Amazing circular reasoning. "I cannot prove it is true, but I don't need to because I know it is true." Faith is always presented as such a great, Godly virtue, and yet it is used as an excuse to avoid disproving the things you want to believe.

  • never a jw
    never a jw

    Darth Frosty,

    The elder is a smart man. I don't want to give out too much. Suffice to say that in his direct and rather large family (siblings and parents only) there are some professionals and all the others are known for having a good amount of secular education and a spotless record of "service to Jehovah", except for the disfellowshipped one. His answers are incredible, even to me, who have known him for a while through his speeches and even personal conversations at my own house and other social events. I expected to see his degree of cognitive dissonance in many of my JW friends from Latin American countries who left for the United States and had in most cases no more than 9th grade education. But this guy does not fit the profile of your average JW latino immigrant.

    My main purpose is to weaken his faith in his God, the FDS, and also to present in JWN how high the cognitive dissonance runs in the JW's circles

  • Tater-T
    Tater-T

    ask him if he's found the truth in the WT publications ... which of these two opposing statements is TRUE

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