Jesus and the Mosaic Law...

by mP 128 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • mP
    mP

    TEC: Paul never corrected Christ. Christ is the one who taught Paul.

    mP:
    This still doesnt change any position on the Mosaic law.

    We have had this discussion before and you have failed to show me that Paul knew Jesus. No Bethlehem, Mary, 12 Apostles, etc etc. The best you can come up with is Paul met a guy called James and Peter. Also as discussed there were many messiahs in the Bible and all of them died during their term.

    If you want to continue this discussion feel free to supply a sciprtures that list all the facts that Paul tells us about Jesus.

    We already know its going to be very short, in fact its going to have the THREE FACTS items i discuss above.

    - Jesus died for us

    - Peter and James were belivers.

    - James was a brother in /of the Lord ( i cant remember the exact word).

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos
    This is all great but it doesnt change Jesus position on slavery, rape, pedophilia and the mosaic law.

    This argument is beyond ridiculous. The principles that Jesus espoused, particularly those dealing with love, obviously make it clear that abuse of children (pedophilia) and rape are serious sins. To insist that every bad act needed to be explicitly condemned by Jesus reeks of either being intentionally difficult, or failing to grasp the underlying point of Jesus' parable of the good Samaritan.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    mP

    You tried to tell me Jesus wasn't the only one to keep the law

    You said:

    "All babies by definition never break any laws and the same goes for most kids."

    So I showed you from your own standard that they do.

    Now you say:

    Kids are too young to love or fear god, they are just starting out. By kids i mean say under 10. They dont really grasp the reality of everything, they dont concentrate or think hard enough about what these really mean.

    Why did YOU bring up babies when trying to tell me about people who were able to keep the law in the first place?

    You seem to think you could keep the Mosaic Law if you wanted. That's exactly what the diciples and Pharisees thought. Jesus told them (and you) ..."unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

    If you believe self-righteousness is good enough for God, then you think you don't need Jesus, so you can stand in front of God clothed in you own righteousness (Isa 64:6).

  • mP
    mP

    mP

    You tried to tell me Jesus wasn't the only one to keep the law

    DD

    You said:

    "All babies by definition never break any laws and the same goes for most kids."

    DD

    So I showed you from your own standard that they do.

    Now you say:

    Kids are too young to love or fear god, they are just starting out. By kids i mean say under 10. They dont really grasp the reality of everything, they dont concentrate or think hard enough about what these really mean.

    Why did YOU bring up babies when trying to tell me about people who were able to keep the law in the first place?

    MP:

    Is my statement wrong, that kids are too young to understand what it means to fear god ? I was just adding to my reasoning and i think its perfectly valid. On the whole most kids are never evil which is what the law of moses is all about.

    Im sorry i dont hold kids responsible to that degree because they dont really comprehend what all that means. I did delibrately break down the list into "babies" and "kids". Im pretty sure you wuold agree that "babies" say under 2 never break any laws included the ones of Moses.

    So even if you want to argue about my selection of kids, you cant argue about babies.

    In the end it only takes one example to show that there have been other people who never break the law of Moses. I have shown that babies match this group and igiven some poor babies die young they too would qualify as perfect in this case.

    I have never broken any of the laws of moses, and im pretty sure you havent either, if we ignore the Sabbath and eating requirements. Given there were also many good jews throughout history im pretty sure many died never breaking any of those laws as well. Its not impossible to live and die without breaking these laws. Some may have accomplished it.

  • mP
    mP

    DD

    You seem to think you could keep the Mosaic Law if you wanted. That's exactly what the diciples and Pharisees thought. Jesus told them (and you) ..." unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

    MP:

    I never implied that anywhere, i just said if you respected the law and wanted to keep it anybody could. You could and so could i, but we know its nonsense so we dont bother with its irritate aspects like not wearing clothes of two different fibres, or working on the Sabbath. If we lived in ancient israel we could observe these things if we had too.

    My original point was tring to highlight that going thru your life without breaking the law was possible. Even Jesus broke the law, he did stuff on the Sabbath. The law said you cant under no circumstances but he did. Im not judging him for breaking the law, im just highlighting that he did. SInce he as a GOd it stands to reason that he had the authority so thats just fine by me.

    Anyone can break any law, its the choice of the enforces if they wish to punish you and given Jesus standing as a God its only logical he could break anylaw and not worry about punishment. We have the same thing today, if you want to speed in your car the you now the consequences etc.

  • mP
    mP

    APog:

    This is all great but it doesnt change Jesus position on slavery, rape, pedophilia and the mosaic law.

    This argument is beyond ridiculous. The principles that Jesus espoused, particularly those dealing with love, obviously make it clear that abuse of children (pedophilia) and rape are serious sins. To insist that every bad act needed to be explicitly condemned by Jesus reeks of either being intentionally difficult, or failing to grasp the underlying point of Jesus' parable of the good Samaritan.

    mP:

    There are several pts that need to be addressed here.

    Firstly Jesus was quooting lev 19:18 when he said love thy neighbour.

    http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/leviticus/19

    ‘You must not take vengeance nor have a grudge against the sons of your people; and you must love your fellow as yourself. I am Jehovah.

    The jews in the torah has exactly the same law and yet they could rape and had slaves.

    YOu cant assume things, to the audience who were not doubf familiar with Leviticus they would still see slavery and rape of virgins perfectly fine as Jesus as not saying anything new only highlighting.

    There is also no law against pedophilia in the Bible. There was no concept of underage in those days and i have already shown that rape of virgins as shown in Deu 22 was fine. Please read the chapter there are many disgusting laws about sex and women there.

    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/22.html

    If you went back and studied the good Samaritan parable yoou will see that Jesus was extremely rude to the women, he practically told her to get lost because of her race and the fact she was a woman. The comparison with dogs is also an extremely grave insult and is not at all kind. He did help her but you shouldnt abuse people like that its not a good thing. We can all give money to home less people, but that doesnt give us the right to call them names some of the really nasty names we have in English in our culture. That is not a good example to follow.

  • mP
    mP

    APog:

    To insist that every bad act needed to be explicitly condemned by Jesus reeks of either being intentionally difficult,

    mP:

    Im not being difficult. THe biggest evil in Jewish community and indeed the Roman Empure was slavery. Nearly half the population were slaves, why cant Jesus say a single word against it, but instead worries on multiple ccassions to teach us to the virtues of paying taxes ? Surely those millions deserve a one line a few times. If he cant help half the population with a good and just parable to help their sorrow and pain then he is worthless.

    He never mentioned pedophilia because the word or concept didnt exist back then. Raping little kids was a social normal, everybody did it. There were brothels everywhere in the ancient world. GOto Pompeii and you will see just how many there were. There are lots penises through out the town as ornaments on houses etc. Sex was everywher ein the open back then.

    Entire countries basically institiutionalised pedophilia, such as the Greeks eg the Spartans. Every boy left his mother and had a mentor or old man. THis man also raped the kid. IM not making this up, im sorry i cant find a link i will try and find one.

    EDIT found the link

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_sparta

    There is some evidence that in late-Classical and Hellenistic Sparta boys were expected to take an older male mentor, usually an unmarried young man. However, there is no evidence of this in archaic Sparta. According to some sources, the older man was expected to function as a kind of substitute father and role model to his junior partner; however, others believe it was reasonably certain that they had sexual relations (the exact nature of Spartan pederasty is not entirely clear). [72] It is notable, however, that the only contemporary source with direct experience of the agoge, Xenophon, explicitly denies the sexual nature of the relationship [70]

    Notice that while ther eis debate it appers that it did happen.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece#Sparta

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty

    Pederasty or paederasty ( US: /'p?d?ræsti/ , UK: /'pi?d?ræsti/ ) is a (usually erotic) homosexual relationship between an adult male and an adolescent male outside his immediate family. The word pederasty derives from Greek (paiderastia) "love of boys", [1] a compound derived from πα?ς (pais) "child, boy" and ?ραστ?ς (erastes) "lover".

    Historically, pederasty has existed as a variety of customs and practices within different cultures. The status of pederasty has changed over the course of history, at times considered an ideal and at other times a crime. In the history of Europe, its most structured cultural manifestation was Athenian pederasty, and became most prominent in the 6th century BC. Greek pederasty's various forms were the subject of philosophic debates in which the carnal type was unfavorably compared with erotic yet spiritual and moderate forms.

    The legal status of pederasty in most countries is currently determined by whether or not the boy has reached the local age of consent. Illegal forms of pederasty for the purposes of law enforcement fall under child sexual abuse.

    This shows that pedophilia was everywhere and Jesus and the Bible did not condemn it, because again it was a social norm.

    And before you attack me, i dont condone any of this evil, im just pointing out that Jesus didnt know or say these things were wrong.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    mP

    Read this back to yourself and think about it.

    DD

    You seem to think you could keep the Mosaic Law if you wanted. That's exactly what the diciples and Pharisees thought. Jesus told them (and you) ..."unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

    MP:

    I never implied that anywhere,i just said if you respected the law and wanted to keep it anybody could. You could and so could i, but we know its nonsense so we dont bother with its irritate aspects like not wearing clothes of two different fibres, or working on the Sabbath. If we lived in ancient israel we could observe these things if we had too.

    My original point was tring to highlight that going thru your life without breaking the law was possible...

  • mP
    mP

    DD:

    My original point was tring to highlight that going thru your life without breaking the law was possible ...

    MP:

    Fair enuff, sorry i got it wrong. I was confused by the quote about the Scribes.

    If they break now laws how can you break less laws than none , i thought you impllied they broke few ? oh well.

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos
    Firstly Jesus was quooting lev 19:18 when he said love thy neighbour.
    http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/leviticus/19
    ‘You must not take vengeance nor have a grudge against the sons of your people; and you must love your fellow as yourself. I am Jehovah.
    The jews in the torah has exactly the same law and yet they could rape and had slaves.

    The point of the Samaritan parable was to answer the question, "But who really is my neighbor?" The commandment you quoted above only applied to fellow Jews. Jesus was encouraging the Jews to widen their concept of who could be their neighbor. Taking slaves and stealing wives from foreign populations would no longer be acceptable under this new way of looking at things. Make no mistake, this was a revolutionary suggestion and it absolutely represented something new to the Jews. Sadly, it's a lesson that Israel still fails to apply to this day.

    There is also no law against pedophilia in the Bible. There was no concept of underage in those days

    Well, how are we defining pedophilia? Marrying a child? Perhaps, but usually people are referring to molestation of children, not simply marrying them. Molestation was obviously going against Jesus' whole message of love and didn't need a specific call-out. Who actually thinks molestation is okay and would believe that Jesus condoned it because he didn't specifically mention it?

    And there was absolutely a concept of "underage". People's lives were shorter back then, and you were no longer a child once you were sexually mature. What we call a child today was a young woman back then, a "maiden". While I certainly think that 13 is too young to decide who to marry, marriages were often based on convenience for the families involved, so age was much less a factor than it is today, when people need to be emotionally mature enough to make a good romantic decision.

    If you went back and studied the good Samaritan parable yoou will see that Jesus was extremely rude to the women

    Huh??? I was talking about the good Samaritan parable in Luke 10, told in response to a Jewish man's question to Jesus. You're apparently referring to the Canaanite woman in Matthew 15 and Mark 7, whose daughter was possessed. Jesus was known to test men and women, Jews and non-Jews with his words. Insulting it may have been, but when the woman responded humbly, he was moved and healed her daughter.

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