More bewildering scriptures

by cptkirk 16 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • cptkirk
    cptkirk

    I'm pretty sure the WT folks used this scripture to try and highlight some greater principle with regard to keeping ones mouth shut, but i don't think it was long lived. i've never heard any opinions on its meaning, only what i was told by 1 elder. it is JUDE verse 9. it basically says that michael was arguing with the devil about the usage of moses' dead body, but it becomes even more perplexing when the scripture says michael "did not *dare*" bring a judgement against him(the devil) in abusive terms. i have my own opinions on it (in terms of contextually contrasted against the scriptures as a whole), but would like to hear what some of the brains here would say.

    some might say that this scripture is in line with the love your enemy line of thinking. an illustration to show that even the devil was not spoken of abusively while attempting to desecrate the dead body of moses.

    the language is really bizarre though. "he did not dare" , that phraseology is very indicitive of fear concerning a larger power. as opposed to wording that would indicate an example of holding your tongue.because of how extreme the wording is, it seems to completely open it up to all kinds of interpretation.

  • cptkirk
    cptkirk

    These guys were stoning people, but on a dime all of the sudden "he did not dare" to even speak an abusive word.

  • Amelia Ashton
    Amelia Ashton

    *** it-2 p. 439 Moses ***

    Moses was 120 years of age at the time of his death. Testifying to his natural strength, the Bible comments: “His eye had not grown dim, and his vital strength had not fled.” He was buried by Jehovah in a location never since discovered. (De 34:5-7) Likely, this was to prevent the Israelites from being ensnared into false worship by making a shrine of his grave. Evidently the Devil desired to use Moses’ body for some such purpose, for Jude, the Christian disciple and half brother of Jesus Christ, writes: “When Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body, he did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms, but said: ‘May Jehovah rebuke you.’” (Jude 9) Before crossing over into Canaan under the leadership of Joshua, Israel observed a 30-day mourning period for Moses.—De 34:8.

    The first scripture states that Jehovah buried the body where no-one knows the location and then you have 2 beings fighting over it. Did they find it? We don't know why the body was hidden only a likely reason nor do we know the Devil's desire. Both statements are supposition with no evidence.

  • tec
    tec

    Just sounds like a warning against calling down judgment on others.

    Leave the judging to God.

    If you read the whole letter, that seems to be the context... because some men were being abusive and judging/condemning others... and flattering themselves. Sort of a 'these men do this... but EVEN the arkangel never did that'... to show the contrast on how it shoudl not be done.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    A few things:

    1) you'd think that the half-brother of Jesus would have known that Michaels was his half-bother Jesus in "another life", LOL !

    ON a serious note, context:

    Jude obvioulsy liked the books that the WT doesn't, namely those not in their own NWT - The story of moses ( From the asumption of Moses) and Enoch ( from 1Enoch- the book of the watchers).

    WHat does Jude say?

    1 Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,
    To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ: 2 May mercy and peace and love be multiplied to you.

    3 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. 4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

    5 Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

    8 Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties. 9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. 12 These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.

    14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” 16 These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage.

    It is a collection of warnings of course, but in regards to the issue of Michael:

    8 Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties. 9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

    IT was a condemnation on those that were holding angels above all ( higher than Christ) and yet angels wouldn't dare do things that Christ would do.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Thanks for your OT. Along with the poor couple being killed for not turning over every last cent, this scripture always freaked me out. Jews did not believe in Satan the same way that Christians do. Perhaps Jude's readers knew what he was talking about when the book was written, but it is clear that its meanings cannot be discerned from the text itself.

    I would ask why this story is even mentioned by Jude. Since I concentrate on the gospels and Paul's genuine letters, I have not read any commentaries on other books (other than Revelation, too).

    When the text is so unclear, it is easy to see how almost anything can be constructed from the passage. Now I just dismiss it since it is so murky. I wonder if there other Christian scriptures or Hebrew scriptures available then but lost now that would explain the meaining. There are several books of sacred scriptures mentioned in the Bible that were lost. Perhaps it was an oral tradition.

    Anything spooky, such as Christ's post Ressurection appearances, used to distress me. I don't see why Moses' body was so important. If I am correct, there was no belief in resurrection at that time of Judaism.

    Of course, the WT knows exactly what this means. It is nice to be able to discuss bizarre scriptures today. Knowing that others find them strange helps me.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    The Assumption of Moses, where the fight with the devil is recorded.

    The interlinear: http://interlinearbible.org/jude/1-9.htm

    ouk, etolmesen, krisin, epenkein, blasphemias

    not, did dare, a judgement, to bring against him, railing

    In context, the text is against false teachers - grasping, fruitless, blaspheming, and utterly despicable. Obviously these blasphemers were pretty free with their language, roaring through where angels fear to tread.

    Rutherford

  • cptkirk
    cptkirk

    Interesting reading. Also, this becomes even more interesting looking at Matthew 17:3. The NWT says that Matthew was written in 41ce and Jude in 61ce. So in Jude we have an archangel watching apparently as the devil looks to abscond with Moses body....and few chapters back in Matthew we have Moses actually appearing and roasting marshmallows with Jesus? When you consider how short the NT is, and you consider that the WT actually seems to embrace these scriptures (which is strange to me), doesn't this almost feel like the beginning of some kind of Da Vinci Code? The notion that Moses is up and walking around during Jesus time, when also according to the JW nobody of Moses time was anointed, therefore he would have no chance at being anointed (so the idea that he went to spirit form in their argument isn't even possible).....(citing scripture in greek scriptures that says something about nobody is greater than such and such if they were born after such and such time). I'm sure some people know the scripture that I'm talking about.

    So, with that in mind, and then the fact that just out of the clear blue sky, the devil is hangin out again as if it's their saturday night poker game again....and michael is mad at the devil because he got drunk again and started trying to desecrate Moses (who was just up and walking around a few pages ago).....I'm telling you something is really wrong here, and it is made even more strange in the fact that the JWs of all people embrace these two scriptures when they basically contradict their entire understanding of the bible.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    You realize Jude is retelling an old tale to make a point, right?

  • cptkirk
    cptkirk

    Must have been a tale from the apochrypha? I've never read those books, have a hard time being motivated to read any of it anymore. seems like i pick it up couple pages then that is it. even if he was re-telling a story, i think especially taking it into consideration with matthew 17:3, that it is still odd, like there is room to discover something there.

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