by The Searcher 26 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • The Searcher
    The Searcher

    The spurious teaching that a person's own death wipes out all their sins - based on the ludicrous assertion that Romans 6:7 is meant literally! - not only means means that Christ's ransom sacrifice was pointless, (because simply by choking to death on a burger wipes out all your sins) but also benefits repentant people with what's called in the UK, Buy One Get One Free. (BOGOF)

    How do we BOGOF?

    Acts 2:38 - "Repent, and let each one of YOU be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of YOUR sins...

    Romans 6:7 - "For he who has died has been acquitted of his sin."

    So when we got baptized, we were washed clean of our past sins, thanks to Christ's blood. But when faithful ones die, they get their sins washed a second time, thanks to their Adamic death!!

    (therefore, Adamic sin brought us Adamic death, and Adamic death brings us forgiveness of sins - New light!!!)

  • cofty
    when faithful ones die, they get their sins washed a second time,

    So are you saying baptism is like a pre-wash cycle for really stubborn stains?

  • Satanus

    It's a double wash cycle. 'Course, ya still have keep on keeping on for the rest of your life, cuz if you lose faith, debauch, change to a nonchristian religion, you lose both of those burgers, sliding from the pan into the fire.


  • Ding

    Freddy's use of "acquitted" in Romans 6:7 is an example of trying to force WT theology into a text that means something else entirely.

    The context of Romans 6 is not how people get forgiven of their sins; it's about how people can be set free from the controlling power of sin in their lives -- how to be delivered from being controlled by anger or fear or lust or whatever it may be.

    Romans 6 isn't talking primarily about physical death, although Paul does use physical death as an analogy. He makes the obvious point that temptations don't have any power over a dead person. Try tempting a corpse with power or money, for example... No effect. He's saying that a person who has been transformed internally by the power of God has similarly died to the power of sin over him. Although such a person may choose to sin he is no longer a slave to it.

    It's similar to Galatians 2:19-20: "For I through the law died to the law, that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."

  • Splash

    Agree with Ding:

    (ESV) For one who has died has been set free from sin.


  • prologos

    of course its bread and butter for the WT BtS, since they repeat the oldest lie: You will never die even at armageddon, never pay with your personal death, so you need the ORG to live. because jesus is not the mediator of the survivors.

  • AGuest

    This is actually not "new light" for the WTBTS, dear Searcher (peace to you!). I took this very issue to the GB in 1996 and literally spoke face to face with Carey Barber about it. Of course, nothing was ever shared with the members (I am not even sure Mr. Barber took the matter to those he assured me he would, the Writing Committee. He didn't seem happy about... or the fact that I knew then that he was not of the anointed. I digress.). I would like to expound on your understanding here, though, if I may:

    So when we got baptized, we were washed clean of our past sins, thanks to Christ's blood.

    NOT necessarily. Just because one undergoes water baptism does not mean one has TRULY repented of one's sins. Many do it just to join a particular religion (where baptism is required for membership). For those who did it in relation to the WTBTS, it might depend on the vows they took inconjunction WITH their baptism. Many took vows that only acknowledged their faith in and loyalty to the WTBTS... and not particularly to Christ.

    But when faithful ones die, they get their sins washed a second time, thanks to their Adamic death!!

    This is inaccurate. As dear ding (peace to you!) pointed out, the WTBTS use of the term "acquitted," is misleading. If one is ACQUITTED of sin then that means one was never GUILTY of sin to begin with. When one dies, one merely pays the wage/price/cost OF sin... the "payment" sin/death EXACTS. So death is the "sentence," which is "paid" when one dies. HOWEVER... the sentence is... LIFE. WITHOUT parole... unless one can "make bail." The "bail" here, though... is far, far, more than any man can pay. Even his own blood can't repurchase him. Certainly, no money can. Hence, one's death cannot bring one BACK from the sentence of death... because one's own blood contains no VALUE with which to do so. The ONLY thing that can get than man released from his life sentence... is for the bail to be PAID.

    In ancient times, particularly feudal times, various people would scour the prisons for servants. They would pay the bail price, and then the person was released to THEM.. and thus, they now OWNED that person. As their slave The person was set free, then, but only from jail - they simply went from one sort of imprisonment (jail) to another (the house of their master, the one who purchased their freedom).

    It is the same way with death: because of one's crimes (sin) one is sentenced to life imprisonment (death). Since they have nothing of "value" with which to purchase their OWN freedom (not enough money, nor is their own blood worth anything), the only thing that MIGHT bring their release is for someone to be permitted to BUY that offender - i.e., PAY his/her bail - perhaps into service for himself.

    And that is what Christ did... PAID for our RELEASE... with HIS blood. HIS blood pays for our releasing from the sentence of eternal "incarceration" in "jail"... death. Unlike men who often purchased OTHER men in this fashion... he doesn't make those he releases his slaves. Rather, he merely sets them free (Romans 8:32, 36). SOME of those offenders are SO grateful, though, and as a result of HIS good act toward THEM (first, purchasing their freedom with his own blood... and then releasing them, rather than requiring them to serve him in yet another kind of imprisonment)... that they BECOME his slaves... by their OWN will.

    They not only marvel at this man, who loved them SO much that he paid for them with HIS life... even though he didn't even KNOW them (well, they thought he didn't, but he certainly did)... but RELEASED them rather than making them HIS slaves... that they want to be with him, wherever he is, wherever he goes. They are SO impressed with his GOODNESS in doing this act for them, that they MUST get to know him (indeed, they want to be LIKE him!)... and so they are anxious to do that, to be in his presence constantly so that they can. And as they get to know him, they realize that he is not only GOOD... but WISE... TRUTHFUL... LOVING... and much, much more.

    And so they say to HIM, "I am your willing servant, indeed, your slave. Where YOU go, I will go. Where YOU direct me, I will go. What you tell me, I will believe. And what YOU direct me, I will do." Because, again, they want to be as much like this man as they possibly can.

    Most of mankind is so arrogant, though, so self-absorbed and enamored with himself and his own accomplishments... that they can't see this man and/or what he did for them. Most don't even think they ever needed him (to pay for their crimes so that they could be released - from death)... or ever will. They believe that either they have nothing to be saved from or FOR... and that they can save themselves. And that's okay - all are entitled to their beliefs as to these things.

    Some, though, not only recognize what this man did for them... and does still... but are unspeakably grateful. As such, they do the only thing they can do to show THEIR appreciation: follow him, listen to him, and obey him. Because, after all, he did pay a very large price and one THEY can NEVER repay. Even if they give their lives in service to him... their doing so will not grant HIM life, as his giving HIS granted to them.

    I hope this helps.

    Again, peace to you!

    A doulos of Christ,


  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run


    Your prewash comment is one your best yet in my humble opinion. I am laughing so hard you can prob. hear me in England.

    We take these doctrinal disputes too seriously.


  • Amelia Ashton
    Amelia Ashton

    So are you saying baptism is like a pre-wash cycle for really stubborn stains?

    It's a comedic day here today. I have lolled twice.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Since I do not believe Adam and Eve literally, I do not believe humans are evil and sinful. P states that God declaration his creation good. The OT has YWH Himself doing all sorts of sinful things. I have foibles b/c I am human. No big deal.

    Humans did not wise things but all species seems to do the same. Have you ever watched your dog or cat do something that is manifestly against their interests? How can such a sinful God declare humans sinful? We do not see genres for genres.

    When I hear most music (not hip-hop, country, blue grass or steel drums) and view fine art, I am frequently in tears. Humans can transcend. Sinfulness is not a balanced view of humans. I do believe that fundamentalists believe we sin so much b/c they were born in that culture. Other religions are not so focused on sin. The OT purity laws made some sense in the desert. Are we sinful when we mix fibers or eat meat and dairy at the same time. Why would any god care about these matters.

    Prewash sums it up in a pithy and elegant manner. We live in a very different culture today. Brain scans, anthropolgy, fiction writers -- we just view sin differently. When I was still in, though, I assumed the Wt was right. The very process of thinking about sin is different. Without context and outside evidence for cultural norms, I can make up anything and prove it with some isolated Bible verses.

    I don't even think the Jewish view of sin is the same as the Christian view. Maybe someone can post about that aspect.

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