resurrections- The Dubs are WRONG. (page 2)

artful

Refiners.

Great points I have always had a problem with the dub interpretation of this...the 7th day advents seem to have quite a nice interpretation. I particularily like the paralel to John 5 v 29 re a resurrection of "life" and a resurrection of "judgement'.

Just a question. In this interpretation, if the first resurrection (144,000) are ruling with Christ, who are they ruling over? Is it the 'nations' who you refer to as being there during and after the millenium? If so, is this to mean that the nations of Earth would not be destroyed at Armageddon? ...OR...maybe the nations are destroyed at Armageddon but the 144,000 are ruling over those who survive through Armageddon and make up new nations. Any thoughts?

cheers
artful

refiners fire

Artfull.

In this interpretation, if the first resurrection (144,000) are ruling with Christ, who are they ruling over?

great question! A thinker.
The adventists dont use the term "ruling", because there is noone to rule over as you say. Everyone is DEAD!
The adventists say, the 144000 sit in "judgement'.
What do they judge?
They judge the correctness of Gods actions in destroying everyone
but them. They do this by examining the life records of all the dead
from history.
I think this is a pretty flimsy interpretation myself.
Seems like theres is NO church that is offering an acceptable, completely cogent interpretation. Perhaps there is no 'correct' interpretation because the Bible is just a very thick, very convoluted book??
The only thing I like about the Adventist interpretation of this scripture passage is that it is consistent.
The events prophecied are all to occur literally.
TheWitnesses have some bits literal, some bits figurative.
A twising of reasoning.
Take the Witness interpretation of Revelation 11, for example.
There it speaks of periods of "days". Some of these (in their view)
are LITERAL days of 24 hours, others are SYMBOLIC days.They do this to try and make the Bible fit their own ridiculous organizations history.

artful

Thanks for the reply Refiners

Ok, so they do believe that ALL are destroyed at Armageddon. The 144K then sit in judgement of all the dead of history presumably to judge these in the (2nd) resurrection after the end of the 1000 year reign? I assume that these decide (with Jesus) who is written in the 'book of life'? If so, this does seem to be a more consistent interpretation of the events described in Revelation 20.

I agree with you on the twisting of literal and symbolic within the same scripture...quite bizarre!

Their current study in the WTS "Isaiah" book is littered with references to fit as you say "their own ridiculous organizations history". It is laughable...or would be if people weren't expected to swallow it up to attain salvation!

cheers
artful

refiners fire

""The 144K then sit in judgement of all the dead of history presumably to judge these in the (2nd) resurrection after the end of the 1000 year reign?""

I reckon thats about it, Artful.
And all the population of the earth, those not "raptured" are destroyed, as 2 Thessalonians 2 v 8 says.Destroyed by the brilliance of Christs literal return.

All this raises a couple of points though.

Firstly, are there only 144,000 righteous ones deserving of eternal life? If this is so, 6 million odd Adventists are going into the lake of Fire. There isnt room for everyone.
I Dont know whether the Adventists have a "great crowd" class that they can fit all the members into so they can enjoy heaven as well.

Secondly, What if the 144000 when examining the records find someone that they think has been unjustly destroyed?will God reverse His decision?The object of all this, I imagine, is so that each of the 144000, within his/her own mind, can become completely at rest, that Gods decisions were entirely correct. That He is absolutely Just.

Dont know whether you know or not, but in Adventist lore Jesus Christ has been in the "holy of Holies" looking thru books containing the names of the righteous, justifying their right to life, since 1844.
As soon as hes finished, the Apocalypse can begin.
If new members are continually joining the Church, how can his examination of the "saints" ever be concluded?

Will Power

Where are these books kept until the big day? Are they added to regularily or do they appear the instant they are needed? They must be out of the atmosphere so as not to come crashing to earth. What language are the names written in? What distinguishes all the John Smiths? would there be a photo attached?

The jumping from literal to metaphor to allegory to figurative really makes the whole story ridiculous.

If someone wanted to describe in words the ultimate of each characteristic and emotion capable of man, those things which are invisible and are only experienced internally, how would they do it?
How would they tell the story of inner strength, integrity & love overcoming & being more desirable than hate, evil and guilt?

You Know

That portion of Revelation is contrasting the two different types of resurrections. The first resurrection results in instantaneous and immortal life so that it is impossible that the second death could ever overtake them. The other resurrection does not instantaneously result in everlasting life. That's because those who are resurrected during that 1,000 year judgment period have to face a final judgment at the end of the millenium. Until that time the human race is still under condemnation to death and from Jehovah's standpoint the race is really not alive right now. That's because the Ever-Living Creator wnats his creation to live forever, so a few years, or even 1,000 years, is nothing in his eyes.

Besides, the scripture doesn't say that they are resurrected after the thousand s years have ended. That's your assumption and error, and it really underscores the fact that apostates shouldn't really even attempt to interpret the scriptures. What the scripture says is that they do not come to LIFE until after the thousand years have ended. That coming to life has to do with being granted life as a result of a favorable judgment based upon what a person does during the 1,000 years when the 144,000 rule the earth. / You Know

refiners fire

from Jehovah's standpoint the race is really not alive right now.

You know. I assume you are refering to the passage in Revelation 20 verse 5 which says:
NWT Witness version:
.."The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended."...

The King James version says:
..."But the rest of the dead lived not AGAIN until the thousand years were ended"...(capitals mine)
clearly indicating they had lived previously.
I am sure you see the significance of this difference.
As to which translation is correct, we will have to agree to disagree.

You Know

clearly indicating they had lived previously

Not really. Jesus once said "let the dead bury their dead," showing that from God's standpoint no man is really alive. Also, Paul said that anointed Christians were at one time 'dead in their trespasses.' So, clearly the KJV is wrong, and you are wrong. / You Know

Will Power

apostates shouldn't really even attempt to interpret the scriptures.

Actually the scriptures relating to this say it is NONE OF ANYONES BUSINESS so why waste your time stumbling around guessing this and that all the while claiming to know the ooooooo truth.

If Jehovah is almighty, all knowing, knows hearts, after man's 1st chance on earth to behave, then given another chance to do it right, all the while HE knows the outcome, why bother? Cause he loves us? He already knows the outcome! To say that he wants to give us every chance because he loves us so much, but knows anyway doesn't make sense. But I'm sure it makes sense to you.

refiners fire

let the dead bury their dead

That passage of scripture is not related to the discussion of Resurrection in Revelation 20.
There you go, engaging in that old dub habit of pulling a snippet of scripture from the book of Ruth to support a contention regarding the prophecies of Daniel. A very bad dub habit.

You say "not really".
I say that if I state, "I shall go to Egypt again".
Anyone in their right mind would assume I had been there previously.
A problem word for your interpretation that "Again", because you would have to conceed that the resurrected ones had, at some previous time, been Perfect.
Which of course, in your theology, they never could have been.

resurrections- The Dubs are WRONG.

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