Creation Story Contradiction

by JosephAlward 26 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Elsewhere
    Elsewhere
    There is absolutely no contradiction whatsoever here, and it is obvious we are talking about an event AFTER creation, NOT A CONCURRENT EVENT.

    Agreed. It appears the account in question is referring to cultivated plants, rather than wild ones. Of course, it shows a misunderstanding of nature (understandable given the primitive world of the writers of Genesis), but you're right, it doesn't contradict the creation account.

    Please show me the scripture that refers to these events happening after creation along with any scripture that refers to "cultivated plants, rather than wild ones"

    On the contrary - the bible says, "no plant of the field was yet in the earth and no herb of the field had yet sprung up--for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth"

    This says that there were no plants because it had not rained [Period]. It says nothing about "cultivated plants, rather than wild ones".

    You guys are also forgetting about the time Human/Animal creation contradiction:

    Account 1:
    Animals Created: Gen. 1:20-25
    Humans Created: Gen 1:26-28

    Account 2:
    Humans Created: Gen 2:7
    Animals Created: Gen 2:19

    "As every one knows, there are mistakes in the Bible" - The Watchtower, April 15, 1928, p. 126
    Believe in yourself, not mythology.
    <x ><

  • GWEEDO
    GWEEDO

    stocwach

    Gweedo,

    How do you get the impression that "land" in vs. 9 refers to everything exclusively? It simply is used in context as a name for "dry ground".

    It does not change the fact that "land" can be used to reference a geographic area.

    well, it aint referring to any limited geographical area at verse 9, is it.

    so when i put this genesis verse...

    '9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.'

    together with this one:

    '5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth[land] [2] and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth[land] [3] and there was no man to work the ground,'

    I get a clear impression that the bible is telling me that no shrubs had grown yet...and no rain had fallen either apparently, on land -- any of it.

    AC said this:

    giving most readers the idea that these two verses are referring to our entire planet, can also be translated as "land," which most readers would then understand to refer only to a limited geographical area.
    Well, I understand it to mean Dirt, which is pretty much everywhere.
  • Moxy
    Moxy

    whereas reading the excerpts joseph has used here could allow for possible various possible harmonious interpretations (land vs earth, cultivated vs wild, etc), these are all ad hoc interpretations that are not directly supported by the texts themselves. that is not to say that we should reject as insprired anything not stated with precise and rigorous terminology. at best, we can call the accounts ambiguous and open to different possible interpretations, some contradictory, some harmonious.

    however, reading the two accounts separately in their entirety raises a number of lines of clear evidence that support the idea that there were two separate original accounts with different details. other examples are use of the divine name, the animal creation, the literary construction. likely josephs site has essays describing some of these, i dont recall. however in this forum, joseph feels it best to distill the complex lines of reasoning down into simple statements that can be easily parsed. while i agree that a forum context calls for a different presentation than an essay, and that the conclusions of literary analysis can be distilled to simple layman's terms, i do not think that the entire argument can be, or at least not all the time or not very well. literary analysis is a complex field. to present one or two statements and then state that the matter is proven is over-stating the case, and given the nature of the topic, even inflammatory. i enjoy the material you present here joseph (keep it up!) but find myself wishing you were just a bit more cautious in your method of presentation.

    those are my thoughts.

    mox

  • Nemesis
    Nemesis

    Elsewhere:

    You guys are also forgetting about the time Human/Animal creation contradiction:
    Account 1:
    Animals Created: Gen. 1:20-25
    Humans Created: Gen 1:26-28
    Account 2:
    Humans Created: Gen 2:7
    Animals Created: Gen 2:19

    If you look at the Hebrew words, they are not the same for Genesis 1:21 and 2:19. The word for create in 1:21 is:
    01254 bara' {baw-raw'}
    a primitive root; TWOT - 278; v
    AV - create 42, creator 3, choose 2, make 2, cut down 2, dispatch 1, done 1, make fat 1; 54

    And in Genesis 2:19:
    03335 yatsar {yaw-tsar'}
    probably identical with 03334 (through the squeezing into shape),
    ([compare 03331]); TWOT - 898; v
    AV - form 26, potter 17, fashion 5, maker 4, frame 3, make 3, former 2, earthen 1, purposed 1; 62

    So create is not exactly the same as make or fashion. I suppose it’s the difference between “creating a car”, and then “making the car”, or many cars. The act of making is not the same as the initial creating. Creating appears to be the act of genius and design, and making appears to be the implementation of that design.

  • RWC
    RWC

    Elsewhere, the NIV places the creation of the animals in the past tense. "Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all of the beasts of the field." It doesn't say that he did that after he created Adam, only that he had done it at some point. It goes on to state that he brought them to Adam for him to name. So I do not see the contradiction.

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    In this post, I will be focusing more on the question of when water was made available for plant growth, relative to the creation of man, rather than on the order of creation of plants and man, though they are in fact closely connected.

    Before I begin, I will point out that there is almost undeniable evidence that the first two chapters of Genesis contain two stories of creation taken from two different cultures and traditions.

    The first story is found in Genesis 1:1-2:3; the second one is in Genesis 2:4-25. It is sufficient here to offer just part of the evidence that two different authors from different times were at work here.

    The author of the first creation story refers to the deity thirty-five times, always as “God,” while the author of the second creation story refers to the deity nine times, always as “Lord God.” It is almost certainly not coincidental that a second account of creation begins at the exact place in Genesis (Genesis 2:4) where the name used for the deity abruptly changes after a long stretch of thirty-five “Gods,” to nine of “Lord Gods.”

    It also does not seem coincidental that the two authors differ in their understanding of which came first: man, or water for vegetation.

    The Second Creation Story

    The author of the second creation story tells us that there was no water available for vegetation on the whole earth before man was created. Here is the evidence:

    This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created. When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens (Genesis 2:4)
    Note that the “earth” in the “heavens and the earth” phrase above is obviously the whole earth, not the Garden of Eden, or some other limited land area. Keep this fact firmly in mind: the Genesis 2 author is talking about the whole earth. The very next verse tells us that one of the reasons there were no shrubs or plants on that earth was that there was not yet the water needed for plant growth. Here is the verse:

    and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth (Genesis 2:5a)
    It is evident that the author above is telling the reader that the reason the plants hadn't grown is that there was no water available anywhere on the land; there was no water from any source available to grow plants. The author mentions only rain water, but it's evident that if there had been underground water, or river or lake water, he would have never told us that the plants had not yet grown because there was no rain water; why would that have mattered if there was another source of water for the growth of vegetation?

    What else had not yet been brought to the earth, besides water for the plants, according to the Genesis 2 author?

    and there was no man (Genesis 2:5b)
    Thus, according to Genesis 2:4-5, there was no water available for vegetation on the whole earth before man was created. However, as you will see below, the author of Genesis 1 contradicts this. Here is the evidence:

    The First Creation Story

    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth... So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it...[on] the second day. And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." (Genesis 1:1-10)
    Note that the earth is now divided into two parts: “land” and “seas.” We’re not talking about a limited land area, such as the Garden of Eden; the land we’re talking about is all of the earth not covered by water. This is the land on which vegetation will now grow:

    Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds...[on] the third day. (Genesis 1:11-12)
    Now, since the other creation story author made it clear to his readers that vegetation growth requires water, we should also assume that the Genesis 1 author likewise expected his readers to understand that vegetation growth does not take place without water. Thus, when we learn from the Genesis 1 writer that water is created on the second day, and vegetation grows on the third day, it is clear that he expects us to understand that some of the water created on the second day was used for plant growth on the third day.

    After making it clear that water permitted vegetation growth by the third day, the Genesis 1 author tells that man was then created three days later:

    God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him...And there was evening, and there was morning--the sixth day. (Genesis 1:27)
    Let me summarize the evidence I presented above:

    1. Water was not used to grow vegetation anywhere on the whole earth before man was created. (According to the author of the second creation story.)

    2. Water was used to grow vegetation before man was created. (According to the author of the first creation story.)

    The conclusion seems inescapable: The creation stories are contradictory.

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    I think something is strange here.

    Bible bashing?

    If something has contradictions or problems, and people use this something to justify virtually any type of action, then pointing out that this something is not a reliable guide and should not be used, as it has done in the past, as a pretext and justification for actions that sometime cause harm to people, or to impose restrictions upon people based upon one of a finate number of indeterminate interpretations, is quite reasonable.

    If I find a manual for a BMW 735 that tells me that I should put jam in the engine, and someone is using the section on suspension to justify picking the nose of people with a large axe, then it is reasonable to point out that the book is in error, and that any claim that it is reasonable to pick peoples nose with an axe just because it says so in that book is equally suspect.

    Am I BMW bashing if I do this? No. Is Joseph Alward Bible bashing? No. He simply believes that the Bible is an unreliable guide, and anyone starting off addressing him by throwing terms like 'Bible Bashing' is obviously starting off with a raft of assumptions and bias of their own.

    Defend something in it's own right, if it can be defended. Don't kill the bearer of bad news... it's not HIS fault. And, of course, you don't have to agree with him.

    But to discredit someone using simple yet unjustified linguistic labels is to resort to dirty tactics that we should know better than to employ, with the experience we have as 'apostates'.

    Are Theists 'Atheist Bashing'. Are Creationists 'Origin of the Species Bashing'? Purlease!!

    Deal in issues, not in meaningless insults.

  • Nemesis
    Nemesis

    Joseph:

    You have specifically missed out verse 2:6.

    Now, since the other creation story author made it clear to his readers that vegetation growth requires water, we should also assume that the Genesis 1 author likewise expected his readers to understand that vegetation growth does not take place without water. Thus, when we learn from the Genesis 1 writer that water is created on the second day, and vegetation grows on the third day, it is clear that he expects us to understand that some of the water created on the second day was used for plant growth on the third day.
    After making it clear that water permitted vegetation growth by the third day, the Genesis 1 author tells that man was then created three days later:
    And your exact points are fulfilled in verse 2:6: “But streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground.” There you have it in your own words above: Water=Plant growth! Then after the ground supply of water had been initiated for the plants to grow we then see man was created. (Gen. 2:7) Both accounts of the same creation are the same—there is no contradiction.
    1. Water was not used to grow vegetation anywhere on the whole earth before man was created. (According to the author of the second creation story.)
    Joseph, you can see from verse 2:6 that a plentiful supply of water had been established, and therefore abundant plant growth would follow this. If you flooded the Sahara desert with water, you would get the same results, a mass of vegetation would gradually take over the desert and you would never know it had been there in a few years. If God had sown the earth with billions of seeds, and all they needed to break their dormancy was a good supply of water, then they clearly had that in verse 2:6. This was all before man was created in verse 2:7. Therefore both accounts are the same, and there is no contradiction.
  • d0rkyd00d
    d0rkyd00d

    I don't see why all this matters, when the only question to solve all this would be why the hell would GOD write a book that is open to so much interpretation. If he really wanted faithful ones to "follow the word" as much as the Bible exclaims, i would think he'd of made it clear cut so that there is no gray area. The entire Bible is a huge gray splotch on the newspaper of life....bad metaphor, i know.....don't talk to me....

    "No cool quote yet. but i'll to go the website somebody recommended me soon."

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward
    4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created. When the Lord God made the earth and the heavens- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground- 7 the Lord God formed the man (Genesis 2:4-7)

    Nemesis is correct that underground streams made water available on the land before man was created in Genesis 2:6-7, and that does answer my water argument. However, there still is a problem with the water. Genesis 2:4-5 above describes a period of time, prior to the coming of the underground stream waters, during which there was land, but no surface water to irrigate it. Now, consider below the account in the first creation story, which has land and the seas created simultaneously:

    9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." (Genesis 1:9-11)

    In this first creation story the land and the seas are created at the same time by gathering in separate places the water that once covered the entire globe, thus creating land and the bordering seas and fresh water inland lakes to support the fresh- and salt-water sea life. Thus, there is never is a period of time when there is land without surface water available to irrigate the land in the first creation story, while in the second creation story (Genesis 2:4-5) there is such a time period; this is a contradiction.

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit