Why don't JWs get classified as a Cult instead of a Religion under the Law? (page 2)

wasblind

Hello LV101

I see what your sayin' But I'm lost so I have to ask

scince religion is protected under the law, why did

government officials get involved in the Jones town tragedy and the Branch Davidians ???

Anybody ????

Chaserious

can't any shmuck say they are a religion

Yes, they can. Personally I would not be in favor of classifying groups as cults in the United States. I don't think it's the government's job to protect people from "dangerous" religious beliefs. If you break a generally applicable law, you should be prosecuted, whether for religious reasons or not. But I don't want the government tellng me what I can believe or that I can't associate with other people who believe what I believe. In my opinion, that would be going back to the red scare era where people were dragged into inquisitions and asked if they had even been a member of the communist party, because the government didn't agree with the thinking of that group.

I don't want my government deciding what religions or philosophies are "weird" or even "harmful" (as long as not breaking neutral laws) and persecuting those groups. This country was bascially started by people who were essentially classified as a "cult" in England before the term became popular, so in my opinion choosing unpopular religious groups and making them illegal would be regressing 400 years.

Chaserious

why did government officials get involved in the Jones town tragedy and the Branch Davidians ?

Because the Branch Davidians broke all sorts of firearms and weapons laws and refused to comply with investigation. You can bet if they stockpiled a bunch of illegal weapons at Bethel they would storm the compound there too. Jonestown was outside of the U.S. and I don't believe they were the subject of a traditional law enforcement investigation. I think the CIA got involved. They were worried about conspiring with an enemy (USSR) and also they allegedly had killed members who tried to escape.

cobaltcupcake

why did
government officials get involved in the Jones town tragedy and the Branch Davidians ???

Jonestown - I think it had to do with unbelieving family members worrying about the welfare of cult members. The congressman who went there was investigating the allegations.

Branch Davidians - They had an arsenal of illegal weapons, and there were allegations of child sexual abuse. The ATF attempted to execute a search warrant, and a gun battle broke out.

In both instances it wasn't the government trying to regulate the religion, it was investigating allegations of illegal activity.

wasblind

Thank You Chaseriuos for makin' that clear, I googled to find out why

and now my eyes are all crossed

wasblind

Jonestown - I think it had to do with unbelieving family members worrying about the welfare of cult members. The congressman who went there was investigating the allegations. _________ CC

I remember hearin' somethin to that effect, that's why I asked the question

but Chase added that it had somethin to do bein' outside the U.S.

I sure appreciate the clarity

LV101

Hi Wasblind

Recall something about a federal violation. The people in Texas raised concerns about this small bunch of nutcases living in a compound with small children being, or potentially being abused (everyway imaginable) and Janet Reno, the attorney general, had to take action. That's all I remember and would have to google.

It has to be castrophic for gov't to get involved but like Chaserious indicates it protects our freedom and I do appreciate having that freedom and don't want it taken away. Unfortunately, we as human beings don't always make judicious decisions (we are weak, misinformed, uneducated about science, RELIGION'S rights, etc.) and pay the price --- freedom comes at a huge price, as we all know. Public awareness is critical and the cults, obviously, look appealing and promising to suffering, searching, humans. I think they should meet certain criteria thru the scientific community, (psychiatric community but they'd be paid off like other gov't entities) before they can open their doors and make their gold, tax free -- but that would infringe upon their/our rights.

I don't think it's the gov'ts job (they don't seem to do a good job at much but I won't go there --- xmas did me in w/lists from small children given out thru an organization and all they ask for is underwear and a book or a size 10!!! shoe for their mother) to protect us but the avg. sap can't protect himself. I appreciate freedom and it's a beautiful thing but is the petting panda paradise (borrowed Billy the ex's great line) w/out education about big business one is prey and subject to all kinds of schemes/evil. Even educated ones fall victim but w/the internet that's dropped off and they only enslave the born ins from what I see here.

Chaserious is rightl --- have to race here and will check back later.

Honeybucket

Jonestown were heavily involved in the communist party. Jim Jones even had all of his money donated to the Soviet Union. As Im sure this raised many many red flags with the government, it was the family members that went to DC to ask that Rep. Leo Ryan look into this guy Jim Jones and Jonestown. Jim Jones was a very respected man back in California. Even Harvey Milk wrote him a letter of recomendation, along with many other politician. This wasnt seen as cult. This was just another church with another charsmatic leader. Yes Jim Jones was a creep, he got caught solicating sex in a park bathroom in Los Angeles. There was stories of him sexually abusing a child. In his own church he condemned homosexuality (except for himself) and he condemned promisciuty(except for himself) The rules did not apply to Jim, he was above the law, he was "christ-like".

Chaserious

LV101 - You're right, it is tough after being raised in the Watchtower to argue that they should be able to have protection of the law. It's tough to see people being misled and misinformed, making unwise decisions, and suffering for it. Too many are indeed misled by the petting panda paradise.. lol.

I'm involved with a program where I work with high school students (I'm not a full-time teacher), and I involved the class in a discussion on whether the government should protect people from their own religion, since it related to part of the curriculum. We used the example of the Amish. Now, the Amish are generally looked at as "cute" and "quaint" by society, unlike JWs, probably because they don't proselytize and they sell delicious baked goods. But some have argued that the government should step in. They do practice shunning for baptized members who leave, and in many orders they do not seek proper medical care - not only blood, but also other important care. Generally they get about an 8th grade education in Amish schools, which does not prepare them well for life outside if they decide to leave. Also, unlike JWs, young Amish do not have the ability to explore criticism of their doctrine, as they do not have access to the internet, television, or even radio. Really, despite the generally favorable public opinion, I think if JWs were to be classified as a cult by the government, it would be very hard to argue that the Amish are not also a cult.

In any event, we discussed the idea of whether the government should be able to require the Amish children to get a normal education up to age 18, as most states require for the general population. (Currently the Amish do not have to meet this requirement even if the state requires it in general). This way, children would be more prepared for life outside if they decided to leave, and also would be more prepared to think critically in evaluating their doctrines and choices in life. Almost the entire class believed that the government should stay out. I think this is probably representative of the prevailing attitude in the US; we tend not to see it as the government's job to paternalistically protect citizens from believing something not in their best interests.

ABibleStudent

According to the U.S.A. Tax Code an organization only has to state that it is a religion to qualify for Section 501(c)(3) tax exempt status. If you believe that the Tax Code should have more stringent criteria, I would suggest writing to your Congressional Representatives. I believe that only the Unification Church has a reduced exemption, because the IRS was able to prove that most of the money went to benefit the leader of the Unification Church and was not totally for charitable purposes. Also, tax exempt status is revoked for organizations that support terrorist groups.

I wrote the following threads about changing the U.S.A. Tax Code, because I feel that it is the best and fastest way to free JWs and exJWs from the shun gun of the WTBTS:

2013 may be the best year to motivate Representatives to change the Tax Code to eliminate exemptions, deductions, and/or credits for organizations. I encourage everyone to write their Representatives to change the U.S.A. Tax Codes, especially in this time of increased deficits.

Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

Robert

Why don't JWs get classified as a Cult instead of a Religion under the Law?

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