Did Jehovah use non-believers to accomplish His will?

by I_love_Jeff 15 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Bobcat

  More from the NICNT commentary on Matthew concerning the star of Bethlehem and the magi:

  R.T France continues (p.62):

  "Secondly, the star which plays such a prominent role in the story invites reflection on Balaam's prophecy in Num 24:17-19 of the rise (LXX anatelei, echoed in Matthew's anatole, vv. 2, 9) of a "star out of Jacob and a scepter out of Israel," which is then interpreted as a ruler who will destroy Israel's enemies and take possession of the lands of Moab and Edom, a prophecy which was understood to point forward to the conquests of King David, and which thus also forshadows the victory of the "son of David."

  "Thirdly, the likely influence of Balaam's prophecy suggests that perhaps Balaam himself, the man who "saw" the messianic star rise (Num 24:15-17), may also be in mind as a model for the magi. He, like them, was a non-Israelite "holy man" and visionary from the East: Num 22:5 locates his home on the Euphrates, while LXX Num 23:7 speaks of his being summoned from Mesopotamia and uses the same phrase ap' anatolon ("from the East") which Matthew uses in 2:1. He, like the magi, was pressurized by a king (Balak) intent on destroying the true people of God, but refused to cooperate and instead took the side of God's people." [end of quote]

  Of course, the Balaam comparison can only be pressed so far.

  When you see all the other OT links Matthew provides in the opening of his gospel account, and the reputation the Matthew account has for exposing the lack of faith of the Jews versus the suprising faith shown by gentiles, one can see that the magi, although pagan, are being shown in a good light in comparison with the less than faithful Jews on the whole.

  It should be noted too, as others have brought out, the acount does not say that the star led the magi to Herod. Rather, the magi show up in Jerusalem asking of the where-abouts of the "one born king of the Jews." This idea that the star led the magi to Herod is the foundation of the Society's argument that the star was a wicked plot device by Satan. Jerusalem was the logical place to start if one were looking for a newly born "king of the Jews." And the royal house of Herod was also a natural place to start once in Jerusalem. The magi did not need a star to lead them there.
• 

  DATA-DOG

  My two cents. I tried to just read the passages in the Bible without WT blinders. I don't claim this to be 100% correct.

  The Star .

  I literally did a verse by verse breakdown of Matthew and Luke's accounts. I used the NWT and the Emphatic Diaglott. What is interesting to me is that if you go on-line and use the " Good Land " brochure maps, you can calculate the distances from the cities mentioned. Also, this is one of those accounts where you have to read both Matthew and Luke to get the entire story straight.

  Joseph, Mary and Jesus did not flee to Egypt until " after " the Magians visited and presented the gifts. ( Matthew 2:11-15 ) Then in Luke we get more info for establishing a timeline of the events. Jesus is born in Bethlehem, 8 days later he is circumcised. Then sometime after 40 days from the birth of jesus, Mary, by law, has to go to the Temple to have sacrifices made and do the purification procedures, by law.

  This is important because they are still poor at this point, only being able to offer up 2 pigeons or turtledoves. So the actual written evidence we have would seems to indicate that they had not been given any of the " gifts " yet. We cannot imagine two people as faithful as Joseph and Mary, offering a skimpy sacrifice to save money when they have been chosen to raise Gods son. Next after everything was taken care of " according to the law " they went back to their hometown of Nazareth. Luke 2:39

  If we look at both accounts, and add up the amount of time it would take from Jesus birth to arriving in Nazareth at a "house", there is no reason to believe that Jesus was 2 or 3 years old before the Astrologers, Astronomers, Wise-men, Magians, presented the gifts. Joseph, Mary and Jesus could have taken it easy at an Inn or at someone's house for a Month or two and then went to Nazareth, we just dont know. Whatever the case the Magians could have been led to the " house " and presented the gifts before Jesus even reached the age of 1 year. Especially when we know that the family did not go to Egypt until after they received the gifts, and they remained there until after Herod died. I don't think they waited around a couple of years and then fled to Egypt.

  Things did not happen instantly like they do today either. So after Herod met with the Magians the second time, secretly, and told them to find the child, some time had to pass. Also, Herod was the one doing all the deceiving at this point. So if the Magians were not far from Nazareth, they were in Jerusalem about 68 miles away, they could have found Jesus anytime after the Families trip to Jerusalem. They could have found Jesus in Nazareth in under 2 months including travel time for everyone involved. That would make sense because Jesus is described in both accounts as an " infant " in Greek. Even when some translations say " child ", the Greek word is the same, and it is infant.

  So from what I have found, there is no reason to teach definitively that the Magians were led by Satan or were working for Herod. We know Herod was wicked and tried to cover the bases by having all children 2 and under killed. We also know that the Magians did exactly what they claimed to have come for, to honor Jesus. Here is what I have found, sorry to be so long-winded about it.
  
  There is no PROOF :
  
  1. Jesus was 2 years or older when the Magians found him.
  2. The Magians were working with Herod.
  3. Jesus was not an infant when found.
  4. The " star " was from Satan.
  
  There is PROOF :
  
  1. Jesus was born in Bethlehem
  2. Herod wanted to kill Jesus, and lied to the Magians.
  3. The Magians kept thier word about honoring Jesus
  4. The Magians followed Gods direction and did not follow Herod's.
  5. The Magians were led to Jerusalem and to a house,( probably Nazareth) by a " star ".
  6. Joseph followed Gods direction and fled to Egypt after the Magians visited and offered their gifts to Jesus.
  
  So Joseph and Mary lived in Nazareth, traveled to Bethlehem where Jesus was born, then went to the temple, then back to Nazareth, then fled to Egypt, then came back to Nazareth! That's a crazy trip, but it was necessary. So do you think I am missing anything, or adding anything that should not be there? It seems dogmatic to say we have proof that Satan led the Astrologers, and then to print it as truth. Add to it the fact that " apostasy " is now defined as " Deliberately spreading teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught by Jehovah's Witnesses ", according to the Elders book. I think the whole story of how awesome Jesus birth was has been downgraded. It is okay to realize the importance of this event, and it is irresponsible and dishonest to teach anything that Gods word does not teach.
• 

  Jeffro

  There is PROOF :
  
  1. Jesus was born in Bethlehem
  2. Herod wanted to kill Jesus, and lied to the Magians.
  3. The Magians kept thier word about honoring Jesus
  4. The Magians followed Gods direction and did not follow Herod's.
  5. The Magians were led to Jerusalem and to a house,( probably Nazareth) by a " star ".
  6. Joseph followed Gods direction and fled to Egypt after the Magians visited and offered their gifts to Jesus.

  Not really clear what 'proof' exists for these...
• 

  DATA-DOG

  If you just take what the Bible says as 'proof' .... The actual reading tells a different story than the WT version.
• 

  Bobcat

  I bumped this thread because this week in the Theocratic Ministry School Matthew chapters 1 thru 6 are being considered. There is some research I did (posts 435 and 437) dealing with the star of Bethlehem. And others have commented about the star on this thread too.

  The Society's argument that the star was a plot device of Satan stands on the idea that the star led the Magi to Herod. Curiously, the book of Matthew does not actually say that. Which means that the Society's idea stands purely on an assumption. And as the research above shows, there are good Biblical reasons for thinking just the opposite.

  I might also point out that whether the star is from God or Satan, either way it does not change the validity, or non-validity, of the Christmas celebration. In other words, the Christmas holiday does not depend the origin of the star. I say this because if anyone mentions this point among JWs, he may very well be accused of favoring Christmas, when in fact, the origin of the star has nothing to do with Christmas.
• 

  DATA-DOG

  Bumping for the "Holiday Season." LOL!!!