New Light About FS--question

by DarioKehl 35 Replies latest jw friends

  • Splash

    DarioKehl:are they saying that only a few anointed christians were selected in the 1st century, followed by nearly 2000 years of no selections and starting around 1914-1919, the selection of the rest of the 144,000 resumed?


    No they are not saying that, as that would imply there were non-anointed partakers in the first century.

    What they are saying is that there were some anointed in the 1st Century (from 33CE onwards), but these were not the FDS.

    The FDS only came into being in 1919.


  • HollyWood

    I'm wondering where they're going to say Jesus went in 1919 after he appointed the slave to feed his domestics. JWs of course will be satisfied with anything they can even remotely call a 'reasonable' explanation.

    And how was the governing body in the 1st century NOT the FDS?

  • AnnOMaly

    Hi Holly

  • blondie

    I do believe that there were 90,000 plus partakers in 1925 which would have left only 54,000 from 33 CE to 1879. The WTS was seeing that 144,000 plus could be partaking in the next few years leaving none for the previous period and perhaps putting in question whether 144,000 is a literal number.

  • HollyWood

    Howdy Ann!

  • HollyWood

    Blondie, in 1938 there were 39,225 partakers. So quite a few must have stopped partaking after the 1935 announcement by Rutherford that shoved the great crowd out of heaven and shut the door in their faces.

    Still, they exhausted 144K a long time ago, if not in the first century, certainly by Diocletian's time in the 300's when the WT Org's own publications show over 800,000 Christians were martyred.

    Using your figures, 54,000 would have been pared down quite a bit because there were some 40,000 Christians martyred in 95 A.D. by Domitian, and that doesn't include the estimated 5,000 that Nero did away with.

  • wannaexit

    My God this whole thing is so convoluted and confusing.

  • Splash

    In 1925 there were 90,434 partakers, everyone who attended partook.

    In 1935 there were 52,465 partakers, interestingly out of 63,146 attenders!

    Add to this last years figure of 11,824 who would not be in the 1935 figure, and you're up to 64,289 partakers in the last 100 years (ish)

    144,000 - 64,289 = 79,700 partakers between the first century and the 1935.

    But in the first century there were 3,000 baptized in Acts 2:41;

    "All of Samaria, both men and women" were baptized in Acts 8:9-12;

    and "many Corinthians" in Acts 18:8-11 which took 1.5 years.

    There are also many congregations mentioned in the scriptures, some written to, all full of baptized (anointed) people:
    There were "many in Joppa" (Acts 9:42),

    "a great number from Antioch" (Acts 11:21),

    "a great multitude in Iconium" (Acts 14:1),

    "quite a few in Derbe" (Acts 14:21),

    "a great multitude" in Thessalonica (Acts 17:4),

    "Many" in Beroea (Acts 17:12),

    "Jews and Greeks" in Corinth (Acts 18:4), and

    "many thousands (literally 'myriads' - 10,000's) of Jews" (Acts 21:20). Tacitus says that under Nero (2nd century) "a great multitude" of christians were executed.
    During the many persecutions under Maximus, 1,900 Christians were martyred in Sicily alone.
    Diocletian (3rd century) killed 17,000 in one month.
    Eusebius says that during one of the persecutions, ten thousand men (not counting women and children) were killed in Egypt. The executioners blunted their swords and had to work in relays.

    How many does that make?


  • blondie

    There is a Question From Readers in which the WTS tries to explain away the possibility of there being 144,000 or more Christians in the first century. Many times the WTS quotes from Christian writers from the first and second centuries to SUPPORT their beliefs.

    *** w72 7/1 pp. 415-416 Questions From Readers ***

    Large numbers of Christians are said to have been put to death during the Roman persecution in the first few centuries of the Common Era. How, then, is it possible for thousands in this century to have been called to become part of the body of Christ composed of only 144,000 persons?—U.S.A.

    There are historical indications that many Christians were bitterly persecuted, even killed, in the first few centuries. However, it should be remembered that, in itself, a martyr’s death did not give a person merit before Jehovah God nor did it guarantee membership in the heavenly kingdom. Many persons, even in recent times, have been willing to die for a cause, religious or otherwise. A person’s claiming to be a Christian and even dying for his belief does not in itself mean that he is an approved servant of Jehovah God. As the apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians: "If I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body, that I may boast, but do not have love, I am not profited at all." (1Cor. 13:3) It is not death, but faithfulness to the very death, that determines whether an individual will receive "the crown of life."—Rev. 2:10.

    Thus the fact that today there is still a remnant of the 144,000 on earth would show that down to this twentieth century fewer than 144,000 finished their earthly course in faithfulness. (CLASSIC CIRCULAR REASONING)

    While some persons may be inclined to think that more persons must surely have been involved even as far back as the early centuries of the Common Era, actual proof to this effect is completely lacking. Today it is impossible even to establish how many persons were killed, much less the number of those who proved faithful to death. "We have practically but few facts to go upon," writes Frederick John Foakes-Jackson in the book History of Christianity in the Light of Modern Knowledge. He further states: "The testimony to the persecution by Nero is recorded by two Roman historians, Tacitus and Suetonius, both of whom were very young when it occurred, and wrote in mature life. There is no contemporary Christian document describing it, though it may be alluded to in the book of Revelation. . . . Tertullian at the end of the second century is our authority that Nero and Domitian, because they were the two worst emperors in the first centuries, persecuted the Christians." Early in the third century C.E., Origen (a Christian writer and teacher) observed: "There have been but a few now and again, easily counted, who have died for the Christian religion."

    Much that has been written about Christian martyrs is embellished by tradition and therefore unreliable. For example, the martyrdom of Polycarp of the second century C.E. is described in Fox’s Book of Martyrs as follows: "He was . . . bound to a stake, and the faggots with which he was surrounded set on fire, but when it became so hot that the soldiers were compelled to retire, he continued praying and singing praises to God for a long time. The flames raged with great violence, but still his body remained unconsumed, and shone like burnished gold. It is also said, that a grateful odour like that of myrrh, arose from the fire, which so much astonished the spectators, that many of them were by that means converted to Christianity. His executioners finding it impossible to put him to death by fire, thrust a spear into his side, from which the blood flowed in such a quantity, as to extinguish the flame. His body was then consumed to ashes, by order of the proconsul lest his followers should make it an object of adoration."

    Whatever the source of Fox’s information, manifestly little of this account is truly historical. Nevertheless, if the allusion to the adoration of the remains of Polycarp is to be viewed as indicating the existence of relic worship among professed Christians of the second century C.E., this would be additional evidence that many at that time were not faithful worshipers of Jehovah God. Christians were under command to "worship God," not relics. (Rev. 19:10) In fact, idolaters are among those specifically named in the Scriptures as unfit to inherit the Kingdom.—1 Cor. 6:9, 10.

  • cobaltcupcake

    Welcome, HollyWood! hi

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