Do you know why God cannot KNOW?

Terry

Logic prohibits self-reference. It is a convention like not multiplying by zero. Live with it!

(Note: you may want to read this first. [PDF]

Self-reference and Logic

Consider the difference between taking a poll about an upcoming election and the actual vote itself on the day of the election.

The information gathered about what the vote WILL BE is provisional. The vote on the day of the election is ACTUAL.

Now, carefully ask yourself what the specific difference--if any--there is between the poll information and the election result as an identical knowledge of fact.

The organization taking the poll--it can be said--has the information IN ADVANCE (foreknowledge) of the election day vote.

Yet--it DOESN'T. Even though the tally may match the poll number exactly---it isn't the same information.

Why?

The poll measures provisional INTENTION and not actual occurance. Actual occurance can only exist at the time it happens and not before!

Let's explore this in the form of a thought experiment.

You are a prisoner in Guantanamo being torturend for information about an imminent planned terrorist explosion of a nuclear device.

Your interrogators want specific information in Advance of the actual occurance in order to PREVENT the actual occurance.

You might well say the torturers want to keep the terrorist explosion "provisional" only and not "actual", could we not?

IF you divulge the day and hour and location of the event IN ADVANCE you insure the event will NOT occur.

This means, logically speaking, you have a kind of special opportunity to possess knowledge of something that will not take place simultaneous to possessing its very opposite!!

This is self-reference.

This is the inherent problem with Foreknowledge as a rational discussion. It cannot both BE and NOT be without violating the Law of the Excluded Middle.

Something either IS or IS NOT. It cannot be BOTH at the same time.

God's "foreknowledge" falls into this category. He cannot foreknow. Not as an actual knowledge.

At best, God could only provisionally know that He can't actually know.

PSacramento

If God is GOD then He can know all possible possibilities to every situation and what choices can be made and what the repercussions will be.

In practical terms, He Knows ALL because ALL is know to Him.

Any choice you make will still be your choice and God will know what it is because any choice you can possibly make can be knwo by Him.

Christ Alone

IF you divulge the day and hour and location of the event IN ADVANCE you insure the event will NOT occur.

So you're saying that by prophesying, you are ensuring that what you prophecy will not happen? As PSac brought out, if God is God, and is not bound by space or time, is not a physical entity and exists only in a spiritual sense, then why can He not know all things, or even FORCE things to happen that He wishes?

Your interrogators want specific information in Advance of the actual occurance in order to PREVENT the actual occurance.

But does God ALWAYS make known everything that He knows so that it CAN be prevented?

cantleave

If he knows all, why does he not intervene before atrocities happen?

Christ Alone

If he knows all, why does he not intervene before atrocities happen?

I DON'T know! :-) I'm not God.

Ok, that was a cop out.

If God was to stop ONE atrocity, then He would need to stop ALL atrocities and not allow any of them. However, we do have free will, which God allows. It is not logically necessary that since God HAS not stopped evil and suffering in the world, that He CANNOT.Biblically speaking, pain and suffering are the results of sin in the world. Adam, who represented all humanity as well as creation, rebelled against God and brought suffering into the world. Ultimately, we can't know all the reasons why God allows suffering, we just know that He does. But there are various ideas:

1. Free will is allowed by God, and this leads to suffering at the hands of people.

2. God has a greater plan. He allowed Christ to suffer for the benefit of others. They are shown that they are lost without God in their lives, and it leads them to accepting Jesus as their only means for salvation.

3. He allows some suffering for a greater good: Sometimes we learn our greatest lessons after having suffered the consequences of our actions -- and this is good. Not that all suffering leads to good, but some does. And as above, it can lead us to acknowledging that we need Jesus' sacrifice.

4. It's the result of sin and our own conscious separation from God.

5. It serves as a warning: Evil and suffering in the world can serve as a warning against breaking God's law and then people can see the necessity of following God's truth.

6. It proves the point that evil and suffering in the world prove that rebellion against Him brings pain and suffering.

7. And the BIG one...who knows...

Everything brings us to the point of realizing that humans will never end suffering. It's impossible. Any promised human utopia cannot be realized. There will always be suffering.

Unless...

Terry

If God is GOD then He can know all possible possibilities to every situation and what choices can be made and what the repercussions will be.

In practical terms, He Knows ALL because ALL is know to Him.

Any choice you make will still be your choice and God will know what it is because any choice you can possibly make can be knwo by Him.

Not a provable assertion. Just a statement of imposed "meaning" without meaning.

You may as well write a sentence that says: "This statement is False." If it is False, then, it must necessarily be True.

Let's demonstrate how it is possible to talk about "infinite" even though "infinite" cannot be possible.

Another thought experiment will serve that purpose.

Let's say God was going to recite every possible number from 1 to.....infinity.

This would take place in the order of 1,2,3,4,5....and so on.

Each utterance of each number would take a certain amount of actual time. At what point would the task be ACTUAL rather than potential?

The impossible part should now be evident: ACTUAL time has a limit while INFINITE time has no limit. The Task is a logical impossibility from the outset

because self-reference makes it an absurdity.

God cannot know what it is impossible to "know" in the actual sense of knowing.

God CAN know only in the provisional sense of our writing in a book and believing He exists and do the impossible. Sort of like having God create a stone so heavy he cannot lift it. A mere toying with words and not conveying actual fact.

Christ Alone

The impossible part should now be evident: ACTUAL time has a limit while INFINITE time has no limit. The Task is a logical impossibility from the outset

because self-reference makes it an absurdity.

Unless God is not bound by time and exists outside of the physical universe where past and future are present to Him.

Christ Alone

And I agree with you, Terry. None of this is provable, just as God's existence or non existance is ultimately unprovable.

Terry

So you're saying that by prophesying, you are ensuring that what you prophecy will not happen?

No, no. You are making it harder than it is.

Go back to the example.

You have knowledge a bomb is going to explode at noon.

IF you tell your interrogator that FACT it immediately becomes a NON-fact by virtue of what that knowledge will cause the interrogator to do.

He will stop the bomb from exploding.

Now...Let us STOP right there!

We are now talking about the KNOWLEDGE you have in your mind and nothing else.

This is our NEW context. Okay?

The KNOWLEDGE of certainity is now changed to a different thing. A "certainty" that will be interfered with.

What shall we call this new kind of Knowledge?

A knowledge of uncertain certainty?

You see?

The clock is still ticking on the bomb.

The bomb is still set for noon.

THAT is a provisional certainty at the moment you divulge it. It is no longer a certain certainty.

Why?

It will be interfered with.

That interference was caused provsionally by what you TELL or do NOT tell.

Same Event/nonEvent is both certain and uncertain simultaneously because YOU can be forced to change it simply by divulging it.

This means it was NEVER REALLY CERTAIN at all. Nor could it be.

There are is no certainty to knowledge UNLESS and UNTIL what is being called "known" actually TAKE PLACE.

Yan Bibiyan

Unless God is not bound by time and exists outside of the physical universe where past and future are present to Him.

Well then why not take it a step further and say that god simply can not prevent atrocities because the uber-god, which exists outside of god's existence outside of our time and space, is preventing him.

See, sounds just as plausible...

Do you know why God cannot KNOW?

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