by jam 84 Replies latest members private
TD:
Can we not rationalise that Jesus as a mere man realised he was out powered by the Romans, and the sensible thing to do was surrender peacefully. After all even if all the disciples had their own swords, they would not have been a match for the trained Romans even if their numbers were equal.
Its equally strange that Peter trusted Jesus so much he felt it necessary to carry his own protection. One has to wonder just how peaceful Jesus total message was, because it would seem Peter learnt absolutely none of it. One has to wonder why Jesus would establish his church on a man who is violent and a coward. Are we to assume that Peter is an example for us to follow and that is why was rewarded with such a position ? I wonder why JW today dont all carry guns, i mean if Peter did why not repeat his fine example ?
Band:
Compare Jesus saying "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemy" with Peter having a sword. Swords I can't see. Small daggers perahps, akin to a Swiss Army knife.
mP:
Why do you forget the part that Jesus only spoke to Jews ? This racist attitude is what caused the entire rebellion to begin with. Even the Paul tells us the Jews refused to eat with the Gentiles. HIstory tells us this apartheid system only causes problems, it hardly makes for a cohesive cooperative society. Jesus by continuing this tradition was not doing his fellow countrymen a favour, he was only confirming this failed sorry system.
You really should read the remainder of his travels and the gospels, the fact he said one nice thing hardly makes him a champion or someone to be glorified. There are countless examples in the gospels where he sets a poor example which if the names were changed would be outrageous and disappointing to us.
if you read what happens before Jesus says to get a sword so that it would be fullfilled that he was in the company of bad guys, etc. After he attacks him he says that's enough.
EoM
So the church is established on a "Bad" Peter, wow what a great example. I guess given how great the BIble makes King David, thats no surprise. This is the same King David who kills 40+ blind men outside Jerusalem because they were a plotting against him. Wow what a champion.
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/2-samuel/5
8 So David said on that day: “Anyone striking the Jeb′u?sites, let him, by means of the water tunnel, make contact with both the lame and the blind, hateful to the soul of David!” That is why they say: “The blind one and the lame one will not come into the house.” 9 And David took up dwelling in the stronghold, and it came to be called the City of David; and David began to build all
Luke 22:35-38 "which is written must be accomplished in me, namely, and he was reckoned with lawless ones.........then they said: "Lord, look! here are two swords." He said to them: "It is enough".
then after peter cut off the priests ear, Jesus healed it.
mP,
I totally agree with you. In fact, my local church women's group was discussing a Samaritan or some other foreign woman approaching Jesus and asking fo healing. Jesus rebukes here and states he cannot heal her b/c she is not Jewish. For some not stated reason, he changes his mind and heals her. Why woud a gospel writer include this strange story. All the nice Christian ladies oohed and aahed at Jesus' compassionate healing. In polite language,I said it was bs. This is Jesus who becomes Christ, a universal figure. What is any of this nonsense about Jews only? It is not Christian at all. Jesus should be Christ like.
As I said with bizarre stories, I believe it may have happened b/c I can see no purpose in showing a selective and arbitrary Jesus related to the second century and beyond. Jesus is not groovy in this account.
In my hometown, this discussion would have been normal. I received dirty and uncomfortable looks b/c Jesus can only be perfect. He can never be human and wrong. His endorsement of slavery is sickening. It is proof that Jesus of Nazareth was limited by his culture.
Still, he said to turn the other cheek. We are taught a Cecil B. DeMille Jesus, not the one in the gospels. The Church tradition is all how meek and good He was. Some of his statements reference violence. The apocalyptic ones scare me.
Frankly, I don't give a damn whether they had swords or not. Peter's actions show a lack of faith in Christ. They all seem clueless about Jesus the person, let alone the Messiah. I note that James is the leading apostle in Jerusalem and not Peter. Peter comes across as a flawed human. Other strands of Christianity do not elevate him the way the West has.
Slicing an ear is ineffective. Pax Romana crucified Jesus. He certainly tasted what it was like as did countless thousands of others. Discussion is difficult here. Unlike another poster, I have no idea what happened. I was not there and Jesus may interact with me but I do not hear voices or have visions. If I did, I would want elevation as a saint, such as St. Catherine or St. Theresa. Theresa who inspired the famous sculpture int he Vatican with the erotic arrows. Yes, such Jesus visions are inherently sexual. Those arrows are very orgasmic.
We can only believe one interpretation which is validated by personal experience. The personal experience of someone not present and not well read in any subject.
Can we not rationalise that Jesus as a mere man realised he was out powered by the Romans, and the sensible thing to do was surrender peacefully. After all even if all the disciples had their own swords, they would not have been a match for the trained Romans even if
their numbers were equal.
mP, the accounts make it sound as though it is not the Romans coming, but rather the chief priests, the pharisees... and/or the temple guard being sent from these. The first tried Him with the Sanhedrin, and then handed Him over to Pilate.
Its equally strange that Peter trusted Jesus so much he felt it necessary to carry his own protection. One has to wonder just how peaceful Jesus total message was, because it would seem Peter learnt absolutely none of it. One has to wonder why Jesus would establish his church on a man who is violent and a coward. Are we to assume that Peter is an example for us to follow and that is why was rewarded with such a position ? I wonder why JW today dont all carry guns, i mean if Peter did why not repeat his fine example ?
Peter was human... same as all of us. Peter often needed correcting, and so do we. Peter's faith was rewarded.
Christ is the one we are to follow though.
As far as the prophecy: I think 'he was numbered among the transgressors' has nothing to do with the sword. I think it merely has to do with the fact that he was arrested and taken before the Sanhedrin, and then before Pilate. Like a transgressor would be.
Peace,
tammy
I totally agree with you. In fact, my local church women's group was discussing a Samaritan or some other foreign woman approaching Jesus and asking fo healing. Jesus rebukes here and states he cannot heal her b/c she is not Jewish. For some not stated reason, he changes his mind and heals her.
A caananite woman... and He does state a reason: Her great faith.
Why woud a gospel writer include this strange story. All the nice Christian ladies oohed and aahed at Jesus' compassionate healing. In polite language,I said it was bs. This is Jesus who becomes Christ, a universal figure. What is any of this nonsense about Jews only? It is not Christian at all. Jesus should be Christ like.
Christ-like would be according to Christ... not according to what we think Christ would be.
But in this case, the story might have been included to place the emphasis on faith, and that those outside of Israel would not be excluded, if they showed such faith. Israel had a covenant due to Abraham and a promise God made to Abraham. God does not break his promises. But faith allows anyone to come to Him, through Christ.
So I think it IS very Christ-like. Christ came to honor a promise and when He was rejected that promise applied to everyone/anyone who looked to Him and put their faith in the Son. This story emphasises that.
Peace,
tammy
