What happened in the Christian Congregation immediately following the destruction of Jerusalem?

by itsibitsybrainbutbigenoughtosmellarat 29 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Terry
    Terry

    The 1st Century Christians were not a group of solidarity as much as they were a loose confederation of like-minded messianic Jews--many of whom

    found identity with temple rites and association with traditional trappings of Judiasm.

    The word: IDENTITY is a very important concept.

    It is the "brand" by which you have self-awareness.

    For example: how you answer the question "Who are you?" will bring a series of responses.

    Your name, your family, your job, your religion, etc.

    The Christian Congregation in 70 c.e. would consist of many locations with people of varying traditions, families, ritual practices--but, MOSTLY JEWS who would go up to Jerusalem for important religious observances.

    The destruction of that center of "pure" worship cut the "ties that bind" those Jews.

    A tension existed between orthodox Hebrew speaking Jews and Greek speaking christo-messianic Jews already.

    Jews-for-Jesus must have appeared quite radical. But, their families and friends were traditional Jews with common understanding of almost everything ELSE in life that went back a half millennium.

    The temple destruction was an act of terrorism like the knocking down of the Twin Towers in New York. Except worse.

    Why worse? The government actually DID do it--on purpose with full public intent!!

    The radical militant Jews rebellious against Rome were ground zero--but--hard to hunt down and exterminate. The Roman generals were sent to strike

    them in their IDENTITY: religious identity and ethnic solidarity.

    By bringing such calumny upon their people and their god these rebels would evaporate into pariahs even to their own kin.

    If you have several species competing for turf and all but one of them is driven out---the one remaining will flourish.

    This act of destruction upon Jerusalem cut the messianic Jews off from their common bond and allowed them to create a new mythology explaining

    such an unthinkable occurance.

    Word was spread that Jesus himself had actually predicted it would happen!!

    Given a warning of prophetic importance by Christ meant the disaster was something supporting their own beliefs!

    It made the christian jews absolute in their indoctrination, belief and dedication.

    On the other hand, the converts (gentiles) who were christian had no problem associated with Jerusalem because there was no IDENTITY fixation.

    No matter what persecutions might well come upon them---the Christian Congregation was more and more secure they had THE TRUTH.

    Jesus would come quickly and heaven would soon follow. A small price to pay, indeed!!

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Nostone

    Velikovsky - no. It rings a bell, so i may ahve dipped my toe in and decided to not go further.

    S

  • NoStonecutters
    NoStonecutters

    Satanus, according to Wikipedia:

    Immanuel Velikovsky (10 June [O.S. 29 May] 1895 – 17 November 1979) was a Russian-Jewish psychiatrist and independent scholar, best known as the author of a number of controversial books reinterpreting the events of ancient history, in particular the US bestseller Worlds in Collision, published in 1950.

    His books use comparative mythology and ancient literary sources (including the Old Testament) to argue that Earth has suffered catastrophic close-contacts with other planets (principally Venus and Mars) in ancient times. In positioning Velikovsky among catastrophists including Hans Bellamy, Ignatius Donnelly, and Johann Gottlieb Radlof,[2] the British astronomers Victor Clube and Bill Napier noted "... Velikovsky is not so much the first of the new catastrophists ...; he is the last in a line of traditional catastrophists going back to mediaeval times and probably earlier."[3] Velikovsky argued that electromagnetic effects play an important role in celestial mechanics. He also proposed a revised chronology for ancient Egypt, Greece, Israel and other cultures of the ancient Near East. The revised chronology aimed at explaining the so-called "dark age" of the eastern Mediterranean (ca. 1100 – 750 BCE) and reconciling biblical history with mainstream archaeology and Egyptian chronology.

    In general, Velikovsky's theories have been ignored or vigorously rejected by the academic community.[4] Nonetheless, his books often sold well and gained an enthusiastic support in lay circles, often fuelled by claims of unfair treatment for Velikovsky by orthodox academia.[5][6][7][8] The controversy surrounding his work and its reception is often referred to as "the Velikovsky affair".

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    What happened doesn't matter much. We know the congregation and church quickly became apostatre.

    Even so, John, Paul and others never died!!! They are still alive from the 1st Century. We can only imagine, therefore, that they shepherded the NT and final Bible we have today to a point where it was reasonably preserved. We can also presume they kep certain ancient documents from that era.

    The Templars, much later, must have stumbled upon John and others still alive with all these records and then received a mandate to collect John and other still alive with these records but they were unable to do so. Later they invented a "quest for the holy grail" to cover for their desperate search for John and the others. So the search for the "holy grail" is not for a mythical cup or chalice, which is associated with John, but for John himself.

    So while the church became apostate, this small congregation of Jesus' followers from the 1st Century existed in secret and underground (literally!) down to our day. Keep in mind that the 144,000 are all natural Jews! So 12,000 from each tribe has to be sealed making up 10% of the kingdom. The entire number of gentiles is 1,296,000 with the total being 1,440,000! (Isa 6:13)

    Isa 6:13 And there will still be in it a tenth, and it must again become something for burning down, like a big tree and like a massive tree in which, when there is a cutting down [of them], there is a stump; a holy seed will be the stump of it.”

    The main tree is rejected, filled in by gentiles, but the stump, the root, 10%, remains Jewish. Having said that, the only way to get 12,000 from each tribe at the time of the second coming is if the 12 tribes existed again. The only way for that to happen was for some who could prove their lineage back to the 12 tribes were allowed to stay alive down to our day and then at some point start families among modern indigenous tribes of people. Along with those descendants of the 12 tribes, others like Paul and John were selected not to die.

    So what happened to the public church after the fall of Jerusalem? Well, a lot of things, including total apostasy. But that didn't mean that a small group of true Christians were not always in existence, John and Paul among them.

    Now that is what really happened. But how hard is that to believe? Even though it's the absolute truth? !!

  • Terry
    Terry

    Even so, John, Paul and others never died!!! They are still alive from the 1st Century. We can only imagine, therefore, that they shepherded the NT and final Bible we have today to a point where it was reasonably preserved. We can also presume they kep certain ancient documents from that era.

    And you know this from what evidence??

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    Even so, John, Paul and others never died!!! They are still alive from the 1st Century. We can only imagine, therefore, that they shepherded the NT and final Bible we have today to a point where it was reasonably preserved. We can also presume they kep certain ancient documents from that era.

    And you know this from what evidence??

    Well, I'm rather an exception since I'm the Christ. So I got to see them both in person. I realize that is not real "proof" or evidence for anyone else but myself but it was only after seeing Paul, for instance, that I was confronted with the idea he had not died, having thought before that he must have. So I rushed home to check the scriptures and discovered that, indeed, he was in the group that was not to die. Um, I may as well give you the Scripture, which is below, but basically once it was clear the Bible indicated he would not die, then I had to accept that must have really been him, alive after all this time.

    PAUL NEVER TO DIE: Okay, the scripture confirming Paul was never to die is 1 Thess 4:15-18. Basically in Jesus' day there were two groups; those who would die and then have to be resurrected when Christ returned over 1900 years later, and a few who would not die, called "the living" who would live on and "survive" down to the Lord's Day Paul includes himself in the "living" group:

    "15 For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord. "

    Note Paul uses the words, "we" and "survive", clearly indicating he expected to live and not die until Christ returned. Of course, Christ did return via my body on December 25, 1992 and so, naturally, I of all people would have the opportunity to see some of the ones who had survived and were still alive from the 1st Century personally. So that's how I know. But the more important point is the Biblical one, which is that the Bible says he was still supposed to be alive. My subjective experience and seeing him takes a back seat to the fact that he was never to die, whether the person I saw was actually him or not. Either the Bible is true and we believe it -- or we don't and thus can chuck it all. So far, for me, the Bible is 100% true, including John and Paul still being alive after all this time.

    In the meantime, God never intended to make this easy on those who doubt:

    ACTS 13:41 "Behold it, you scorners, and wonder at it, and vanish away, because I am working a work in your days, a work that you will by no means believe even if anyone relates it to you in detail."

  • itsibitsybrainbutbigenoughtosmellarat
    itsibitsybrainbutbigenoughtosmellarat

    It was a pleasure to have "The Christ" on my post. AhhhThankya thankya very muchhh!

  • prologos
    prologos

    Revelation chapyer 2 gives a picture, although its set in the "lords day" yet the 7 congrgations are local and the overseers "stars?" answering directly to Christ. No governing body in sight. 7 autonomous congregations. But Christ approving and disapproving individuals in the congrgations. warning that he would have to intervene himself to straighten things out. free will and initiative at work but with consequences. see beabeorean.com

  • Vidqun
    Vidqun

    I was also interested in the state of Christianity after the destruction of Jerusalem. The following is taken from Adolf von Harnack's treatise The Mission and Expansion of Christianity in the First Three Centuries. I have great respect for German scholarship. Only problem with it, it is quite old (1925), but insightful in that it indicates that not many sources outside the Bible, i.e., the NT, exist that sheds light on that critical time. He tried to piece things together with what he had. Overall, he concentrated on later periods in the development of Christianity. I am still working though the two volumes, but will let you know if I discover anything interesting. In hindsight one can see that the scattering of the early Christians did help in spreading the Christian message to surrounding towns and areas.

    The testimonies collected under §§ 1–4, 6–9, and 11 represent the original and ancient conception of the rapid spread of the gospel over all the world. They tell us hardly anything about its actual spread, though they certainly bear witness to its energetic character, and to the fact that the gospel had already reached barbarians, Greeks, and Latins in the course of its diffusion throughout the empire.

    § 3 (Matt. 24:14) contains the general theory of the mission, which is put into the lips of Jesus: “the gospel has to be preached to all the world for a testimony to the heathen. Then comes the end.” The eschatological picture drawn by the author of the Apocalypse (§ 6, Apoc. 7:9) corresponds to this.

    The passages from Paul (1 Thess. 1:8; Rom. 1:8, 15:19 f.; Col. 1:6, 23) are deliberate rhetorical exaggerations; so in § 4 (Acts 17:6).

    The passages in § 7 (Matt. 24:9, 28:19; Mark 16:20; Acts 1:8; Preaching of Peter) and § 2 (1 Tim. 3:16, quotation from a hymn) affirm that the disciples of Jesus, or the apostles, received a commission to go into all the world and preach the gospel to all men, and that they discharged this commission. This belief, that the original apostles had already preached the gospel to the whole world, is therefore extremely old; nor, even supposing that Matt. 28:19 is taken as an interpolation, need it be put later than c. 90 a.d. (cp. Acts 1:8). The belief would never have arisen unless some definite knowledge of the apostles’ labours and whereabouts (i.e., in the majority of cases) had been current. Both Clemens Romanus (§ 8) and Ignatius (§ 9) assume that the gospel has already been diffused all over the world, the former speaking, with rhetorical exaggeration, of Paul as the missionary who had taught all the world. Finally, as the conception emerges in Hermas (§ 11), it is exceptionally clear and definite; and this evidence of Hermas is all the more weighty, as he may invariably be assumed to voice opinions which were widely spread and commonly received. On earth, as he puts it, there are twelve great peoples, and the gospel has already been preached to them all by the apostles.

    The actual expansion of the gospel during the first Century must be deduced from the writings of the New Testament and the earliest extra-canonical literature. With regard to the intensity of its spread, we possess no evidence beyond that of the passages cited under § 5 (Acts 21:20) and § 10 (Pliny). These passages, however, are of extreme importance. The former testifies that among the Palestinian Jews, at the time of Paul’s last visit to Jerusalem (i.e., during the sixth decade), Christians were already to be found in tens of thousands. The latter passage yields even richer spoil. It sketches the compass and consequences of the Christian propaganda in Bithynia and Pontus during the reign of Trajan; it depicts an activity which astounds us and which might dispose us to question Pliny’s statements—particularly as he had good reasons for exaggerating the movement, in order to dissuade the emperor from taking any wholesale, bloody measures for its repression. Still, the main points of the governor’s tale must be correct, and they are quite enough to justify the opinion that exceptionally strong currents were already flowing in these provinces which told in favour of a religion like Christianity (see below, Sect. III. § 9 in the third chapter of this Book).

    As the statements of Justin (§ 12) and the author of the epistle to Diognetus (§ 14) upon the diffusion of Christianity are mainly due to the theoretical belief that the gospel must have already spread all over the earth, they are of no value, although the evidence of Dial. cxvii. may perhaps be based on some knowledge of the nomadic Arabs having already been reached by the message of Christianity. Justin, as a native of Samaria, might quite well know something about these tribes. In any case, the other notice is of some importance, viz., that by the age of Justin the Gentile Christians already outnumbered the Jewish Christians. Still more significant, of course, is the statement of pseudo-Clemens (Soter), writing about fifteen years later, to the effect that the Christians were more numerous than the Jews (§ 13). For, even if this notice represents a purely subjective estimate, even if it applies in the first instance only to the special circle which the author had in view (i.e., Rome), still it must remain an illuminating fact that a prominent Roman Christian, circa 170 a.d. , was under the impression that the Christians were already superior numerically to the Jews.

    The language employed by Celsus (§ 15) serves as a welcome corrective of the Christian exaggerations. True, Celsus also exaggerates. But he exaggerates in an opposite direction. He makes out as if Christianity were already in extremis owing to the rigour of the imperial regulations under Marcus Aurelius. This, of course, is not worth serious discussion. Nevertheless, the mere fact that he could give vent to such an idea, proves that there was no question as yet of enormous crowds of Christians throughout the empire.

    The general theory, that the church had already spread all over the world, also underlies the assertions of Irenæus (§ 17) and Clement of Alexandria (§ 18). Nevertheless, the statements of the latter author deserve consideration, for he met with many people from various quarters, and he testifies, moreover, that “not a few” philosophers had betaken themselves to Christianity. The remarks of Irenæus, again, have some weight as regards the churches in Germany and among the Celts at any rate—however worthless they may be as regards Iberia, etc. On the former churches Irenæus could speak from personal knowledge, and it is they who are meant in his allusions to barbarian tribes who possessed true Christianity, although they had not the scriptures in their own language. [1]


    [1] von Harnack, A. (1908). The Mission and Expansion of Christianity in the First Three Centuries, Volume 2 (J. Moffatt, Ed.) (Second, Enlarged and Revised Edition). Theological Translation Library (23–26). London; New York: Williams and Norgate; G. P. Putnam’s Sons.

  • mP
    mP

    Apog:

    Yes, moggy lover's comment was very educational to me.

    @mP: Far be it from me to sound like I'm defending slavery, but wasn't Paul telling the slave to return to a master who was now a Christian? Philemon and Onesimus were supposed to be spiritual brothers at this point. We also don't know if Onesimus ran away because he was being mistreated in the first place. To be more philosophical about things, one could argue that a well-treated slave is little worse off than an overworked, underappreciated employee at a modern large corporation (a "wage slave") or, heck, a Bethelite. The reason why slavery is bad is the power it gives someone to be unkind to someone else with no recourse (edit: and also that slavery carries down to the children of the slave). But Onesimus would have had recourse because he was presumably now in the same congregation as Philemon.

    mP -> Apog:

    Firstly the text makes it quite clear that Onesimus is to return to his master which implies he is still a slave. What was wrong w/ Paul not to tell his congregations that slavery was evil ? THey have countless arguments about circumcision but cant see evil in slavery ? Is that really the type of visions and holy spirit that God gives to his followers ?

    Im unsure why you compare slavery ofthe past w/ idiots who work for next to nothing in Bethel. Firstly slaves in the anceitn world, could be raped, killed, beaten things which generally dont happen today. Slavery was bad, really bad, thats why Sparatacus and thoushads risked everything and even fought the Roman army knowing fully well that they weould be killed if they were caught. In fact when the Roman army finally caught up with them thousands of salves were impailed and placed on the road to Rome. Has the WT done anything like this latelY ?

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