Did Jesus Sin?

by KJV 13 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • KJV
    KJV

    Have you ever wondered why God dealt with man up until the first century C.E. and then for the last 2,000 years we haven't heard from Him? Could it be that God is upset with mankind for killing His son? Or could the reason be is that Jesus sinned?

    What if Jesus had sinned? What would be the consequences? The NIV Study Bible answers this on page 723 where it reads:"...If God will only let Satan tempt Job by breaking the link between righteousness and blessing, he will expose the righteous man for the sinner he is." It goes on to say:"It is the adversary's ultimate challenge. For if the godliness of the righteous man in whom God delights can be shown to be a terrible sin, then a chasim of alienation stands between them that cannot be bridged. Then even redemption is unthinkable, for the godliest of men will be shown to be the most ungodly. God's whole enterprise in creation and redemption will be shown to be radically flawed, and God can only sweep it all away in awful judgment."

    So if Christ had sinned, it would have caused God to turn away from man for good and all that awaits us now is final judgment. What sin did Christ commit? Here are some points to consider:

    -At Mark 7:19 it states that "Jesus declared all foods clean". This is in direct violation of God's commands at Leviticus the eleventh chapter where certain animals were forbidden to be eaten. The law wasn't done away with until after Christ death.

    -At John 10:33 the Jews were going to stone Jesus for blasphemy because he claimed to be God.

    -At Matthew 5:22 Jesus says that if anyone calls his brother "a fool" he has sinned and will go to Gehenna and yet Jesus calls the Pharisees "blind fools" at Matthew 23:17.

    -The Secret Gospel of Mark alludes to the possibility that Jesus could have practised homosexuality.

    Christians will claim that Jesus didn't sin, that he was faithful up until death. But why did Jesus say before he died "Father, why have you forsaken me?" Is that because in the last few seconds of his life God withdrew His Holy Spirit and Jesus was left "standing on his own two feet"? Why wasn't Jesus left two stand on his own two feet during his three and a half year ministry? And if Jehovah had "purposed" for Jesus to die for mankind without ever sinning then Jesus couldn't have sinned if he wanted to! What kind of test was that?!? But according to the Bible Jesus was tested many times and a real test would of allowed for the possibility for Jesus to have failed any test and thus sin. If this was the case and Jesus had sinned, the early Christian writers have done a great job in covering this up.

  • willy_think
    willy_think

    "father, why hast thou forsaken me?"
    I would have to say he was calling his witness to remember this victory song:
    (RSV, Psalms 22)
    1 To the choirmaster: according to The Hind of the Dawn. A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning? 2 O my God, I cry by day, but thou dost not answer; and by night, but find no rest. 3 Yet thou art holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel. 4 In thee our fathers trusted; they trusted, and thou didst deliver them. 5 To thee they cried, and were saved; in thee they trusted, and were not disappointed. 6 But I am a worm, and no man; scorned by men, and despised by the people. 7 All who see me mock at me, they make mouths at me, they wag their heads; 8 "He committed his cause to the LORD; let him deliver him, let him rescue him, for he delights in him!" 9 Yet thou art he who took me from the womb; thou didst keep me safe upon my mother's breasts. 10 Upon thee was I cast from my birth, and since my mother bore me thou hast been my God. 11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near and there is none to help. 12 Many bulls encompass me, strong bulls of Bashan surround me; 13 they open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening and roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax, it is melted within my breast; 15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue cleaves to my jaws; thou dost lay me in the dust of death. 16 Yea, dogs are round about me; a company of evildoers encircle me; they have pierced my hands and feet-- 17 I can count all my bones--they stare and gloat over me; 18 they divide my garments among them, and for my raiment they cast lots. 19 But thou, O LORD, be not far off! O thou my help, hasten to my aid! 20 Deliver my soul from the sword, my life from the power of the dog! 21 Save me from the mouth of the lion, my afflicted soul from the horns of the wild oxen! 22 I will tell of thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the congregation I will praise thee: 23 You who fear the LORD, praise him! all you sons of Jacob, glorify him, and stand in awe of him, all you sons of Israel! 24 For he has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; and he has not hid his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him. 25 From thee comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will pay before those who fear him. 26 The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the LORD! May your hearts live for ever! 27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him. 28 For dominion belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations. 29 Yea, to him shall all the proud of the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and he who cannot keep himself alive. 30 Posterity shall serve him; men shall tell of the Lord to the coming generation, 31 and proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn, that he has wrought it.

    The Great and Powerful Oz:

    pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
  • KJV
    KJV

    willy think,

    This scripture raises some questions. Did Jesus really say "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?", or did the author of Mark take this from Psalms 22 and insert it? How could Jesus crying out that his "God has forsaken him" or "abandoned" him be a victory song? It would seem to me that if Jesus really said this he felt God was through with him.

  • willy_think
    willy_think

    KJV,

    This scripture raises some questions. Did Jesus really say "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?", or did the author of Mark take this from Psalms 22 and insert it?


    "fore score and seven........"
    "one small step for......."
    "We the people....."

    Bringing a concept to mind by reciting the first line of the peace was in common practice at the time of Christ as it is today. Jesus was the Teacher

    How could Jesus crying out that his "God has forsaken him" or "abandoned" him be a victory song?
    it is the first line of a victory song. I'm not sure I understand the question, you know that Jesus won, that his death on the cross was a victory don't you? he did.

    It would seem to me that if Jesus really said this he felt God was through with him.
    I'm so sorry you feel that way. It seems as if you think Jesus lost faith in his Farther before his work was completed. he didn't

    The Great and Powerful Oz:

    pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Me and my gf were having a talk about Jesus the other day.

    Obviously, before we get round to details like, did he sin, there's an awful lot we need to know.

    If we assume he is a historical figure (there's a lot of reasons why this may not be so, but for the sake of arguement), then IF he was the son of god, as in God goes 'bing' to Mary and nine months later you get JC, one has to go through the whole Trinity thing (as in seperate son, or physical manisfestation of mystical three-for-one offer, and also when he KNEW he was the son of god (despite the fuss and blather surrounding his birth some contend he didn't know his nature till later in life) before even thinking of getting down to if he was perfect and if he sinned, and what he meant by that statement.

    If he wasn't the son of god, then he probably was a visionary with a stong belief in a kinder, gentler god than was held in Israel. He was possibly influenced by the Essenes, who would provide a link to Zorastianism and Buddhism, both of which have teachings (and in the case of the Buddha, entire life stories) which closey parrallel Jesus'. They were also skilled healers and dressed in white. Maybe he was just using a metaphor when he said 'son of god', and meant you, me, everybody... which must have been really annoying when he got nailed to a tree, thus the statement.

    Also, if he was an Essene, then it makes sense of his reputation as a healer, and gives credance to the persistant stories that he was taken down from the cross (or stake, have it your way) and revived.

  • KJV
    KJV

    -willy think,

    If we assume that Jesus died with God's approval, then we have to come up with some rational explaination as to why Jesus felt abandoned. The Society teaches that at the last minute, God withdrew His holy spirit from Christ, and Christ wasn't aware that this was going to happen. Is this what you believe? Otherwise how do you explain Jesus crying out his apparent pain over being "dumped"?

    John Lennon sang "Father,...you left me...but I never left you...", I don't think Lennon was singing any kind of victory song.

    -Abaddon,

    I agree that there are many unanswered questions about Jesus but I posted my question "Did Jesus Sin?", assuming that he was God's son and was supposed to die for our sins. Why do Christians automatically assume that Christ never sinned and passed all his test with "flying colors"? Jesus was also a "rebel" and in his rebellion it appears he violated the Law. If he was really tested and God allowed him to be tested then there was a 50% chance that he could have failed. That's a pretty high percentage, wouldn't you agree? I personally don't know what to make of the historical Jesus but I do feel it is pure unmitigated credulity on the part of Christians to assume that Christ could have not sinned.

  • drawcad_1
    drawcad_1

    There are a lot of what if's that have to be answered before you start discussing jesus christ. What made him different from all of the other saviors that were stumbling around during that time. Why are the only writtings about him just in the bible, except for a few possibly phony additions to early writtings.

    One of the problems with talking to a "believer" is that they just believe some of the stuff that you want proven.

  • willy_think
    willy_think

    Abaddon,
    Jesus shows us he has knowledge of future events, (Matthew 17:18-19, john 13:21, 8:28-36)

    Jesus shows us he understands why he must be crucified. (Matthew 17:28, John: 12:27-32, 10:17-18, 14:28-31)

    Looking at the bible as a work of fiction, I would still say, it was the intent of the author to invoke psalms 22 with the quote "Father why have you forsaken me?" we can look to other interrelated references attributed to the character Jesus like, "coming on the clods" (Daniel 7:13-14, Revelation 1:7-8) and there are many more, in fact, this seems a very common motif.

    KJV

    If we assume that Jesus died with God's approval, then we have to come up with some rational explaination as to why Jesus felt abandoned.
    first we need to ASSUME Jesus felt abandoned.

    The Society teaches that at the last minute, God withdrew His holy spirit from Christ, and Christ wasn't aware that this was going to happen. Is this what you believe?
    No, the Society has no basis for this teaching neither from the bible nor from Tradition.

    Otherwise how do you explain Jesus crying out his apparent pain over being "dumped"?
    this is a loaded question. I would explain it like this: the WT teaches this in order to make Jesus a failure, and his sacrifice worthless.

    John Lennon sang "Father,...you left me...but I never left you...", I don't think Lennon was singing any kind of victory song.
    i don't thimk Jesus was saying this.
  • willy_think
    willy_think

    Matthew 27:46 "Jesus cried out in a loud voice, ‘Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?’ which means, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me ?’ "

    KJV,

    I suggest that Jesus was not just reciting this passage, but that He was also praying it, since He was accustomed to constant prayer. Jesus was fully human. He fully experienced the pain of death. One of the greatest pains of death is the feeling of separation. Since Jesus was infinitely intimate with God the Father, no one else could have experienced this pain more that He. So, Jesus prays this pray of Psalm 22. Since Jesus is also so intimately concerned for our well being both physically and spiritually. He prays this passage not just silently, but out loud. Please consider the following: John 11:41-43

    And Jesus raised his eyes and said, ‘Father, I thank you for hearing me. I know that you always hear me; but because of the crowd here I have said this, that they may believe that you sent me.’ … ‘Lazarus, come out !
    Two things can be seen from this passage. First, the Father always hears the Son. Second, Jesus prays out loud for the benefit of His hearers. So, when he prayed Psalm 22, out loud, from the cross he brings to His followers’ mind’s the triumphal meaning that is revealed at the end of that Psalm. Jesus knew that His listeners would have been reminded of the rest of that prayer.
    Psalm 22: 2, 22-25
    My God, my God, why have you abandoned me? …
    Save me from the lion’s mouth,
    my poor life from the horns of wild bulls.
    … For God has not spurned or disdained
    the misery of this poor wretch,
    Did not turn away from me,
    but heard me when I cried out.
    Jesus was giving us a message of hope when we follow him to the cross. Luke 9:23-24.
    Even though believers in God may feel abandoned when they suffer, in raelity God the Father is closer than ever. What farther would not desire to be near his son when he is suffering. I would say an earthly father is not more loving than God the Father.
    If we say that Jesus was "forsaken" in an absolute sense, then wouldn’t that make the Father out to be a schizophrenic God, One who tells Jesus to do something and then when Jesus obeys the Father forsakes Him.

    Garden of Gethsemane Matthew 26:39. In support of the first opinion someone might quote: Galatians 3: 10-13

    For all who depend on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, ‘Cursed be everyone who does not persevere in doing all the things written in the book of the law.’ … Christ ransomed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who hangs on a tree,

    Paul was referring to how Jesus accepted the suffering was due to our guilt.
    Deuteronomy 27:26
    Cursed be he who fails to fulfill any of the provisions of this law!’ And all the people shall answer, ‘Amen!
    However, this is only explains the earthly perspective. Christians see beyond just what is perceived by the flesh accept what we know by faith. Jesus died on the cross to restore holiness in Mankind not to just fulfill some legalistic rule about the Father getting His blood’s worth of revenge, as the WT misperceive it. It was the pagan "gods" who punished just for the sake of revenge. Sin by its very nature always brings destruction and suffering into the world. By accepting the suffering due to our guilt Jesus enables our hearts to be opened up to having a true faith , so that it will even be open to accepting the suffering of the cross. Jesus was doing much more than just fulfilling some legalistic requirement, He was enabling us to become truly loving and holy by His grace which works within us. Even when God inflicts punishment He does so with more love than any human being could imagine.

    Jesus was never more glorious to the Father than when Our Savior hung on the Cross.
    John 12:23

    Jesus answered them, ‘The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.’ " John 17:1 "When Jesus had said this, he raised his eyes to heaven and said, ‘Father, the hour has come. Give glory to your son, so that your son may glorify you
    let's think about,
    Isaiah 53:4
    Yet it was our infirmities that he bore, our sufferings that he endured, While we thought of him as stricken, as one smitten by God and afflicted." "While we thought of him as stricken …

    seems to imply that He was not really forsaken. As does the following prophecy.
    Psalm 31:23

    Once I said in my anguish, ‘I am shut out from your sight.’ Yet you heard my plea, when I cried out to you.


    John 14:8-11
    Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? … The Father who dwells in me is doing his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me …
    John 8:28-29
    So Jesus said (to them), ‘When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will realize that I AM, and that I do nothing on my own, but I say only what the Father taught me. The one who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, because I always do what is pleasing to him.

    So, i think it is appropriate to ask, "What was the Father’s plan, His Will, for Jesus ? And when did Jesus do that ?" In the Garden of Gethsemane Jesus prayed,

    Matthew 26:39

    My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet, not as I will, but as you will.

    John 10:17-18, 30
    This is why the Father loves me, because I lay down my life in order to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down on my own. I have power to lay it down, and power to take it up again. This command I have received from my Father … The Father and I are one.

    So, Jesus was never more lovable then when he was on the Cross. It was then that Jesus was doing what was pleasing to the Father, giving His life in love for the Father and His will. And as John 8:28-29 poimts out, God the Father could not have left Him alone at this or any other time.
    John 16: 32- 33

    Behold, the hour is coming and has arrived when each of you will be scattered to his own home and you will leave me alone. But I am not alone, because the Father is with me. I have told you this so that you might have peace in me.

    This passage refers to when Jesus will be abandoned by most of the Apostles at the Cross, yet, Jesus informs us that the Father is, and will be, with Him at that time. Further, He says that this is to give us peace. He is implying that we will be treated by our Heavenly Father in our time of trial the same way the Father treated Him. We will not be abandoned or forsaken, it will only appear to be that way. See the end of the Psalm above. Christians are called to see the fullness of reality not by natural means but by supernatural faith, hope and love.

    The Great and Powerful Oz:

    pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    St. Paul certainly believed that Jesus was sinless. He expressed this in Hebrews 4:15 where he stated that Jesus was tested like us in all things but did not sin.

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