Who did Paul pray to: (page 2)

fulltimestudent

Satanus

Vermes seems to see each grouping of NT documents as representing a 'branch of early Christianity. For example, he commences his chapter on John's gospel with the words, " Johannine Christianity, that is the religion reflected by the Fourth gospel and the letters attributed to Johm, represents a monumental advance on the religion of the early charismatic church."

And, of course, what he calls the 'Pauline religion, is another group in that view, as is the original group of disciples.

And, yes, I appreciate your thought on the witness dilemma of relating to Jesus. Perhaps, some of that 'emotional conflict' grows out of the various 'Christian sub-branches' explicit in Vermes' view. I experienced that conflict myself, or should I say puzzlement. It was not the reason I moved on, as I was "true-blue" at that time and well-schooled by my witness peers in waiting patiently for Yahweh's clarification.

Can't say more at present - I'm going out to lunch (grin).

fulltimestudent

Sorry, for taking so long to respond to your post(s) Pterist.

Re you comment on Hebrews. So curious, is it not, that dyed-in-wool Christians (not to mention our former loving brothers and sisters), can be dead sure that Hebrews is inspired and yet the early church debated its inspiration?

And, as an aside, when i first posted here I was a 'full-timestudent, or at least that's how the Australian government (who is paying the up-front fees for my studies) counted me. But I soon found that I was happier doing only 2 study units each semester, rather than the 3 required to be counted as a fulltime student. 2 units gave me the chance to explore areas of the subject that I may not otherwise be able to explore, so though I'm spending most of my time reading and studying, the government now describes me as a part time student. I do not really care, so long as they keep, paying for my course. Sometime in the future, if my earnings reach the high level they set, I will have to start paying it back, but there's a good chance I will die first.

But, just in case some fellow Aussie thinks I'm bludging on the government, I do hope that I get the chance to teach at say Community College Level or Business People who want to know 'all about Asia' in 60 minutes, but how much I'm going to earn is a big dark mystery.

Piercingtheveil81

This is an interesting thread.

When I started to leave the JWs, naturally I started looking more closer at mainstream christianity to see if there was something that the JWs had dead wrong regarding the trinity and so forth. This studying of mainstream Christianity made things even more confusing when I started to come across information like some mentioned in here.

Needless to say, I eventually lost complete faith in Christianity as a whole and while some may find it strange and wierd, I eventually became a Muslim. The NT and Dead Sea Scrolls scholar Robert Eisenman strongly held the opinion that Islam was the inheritor of the faith of the historical Jesus and his closest of followers. Not saying that everyone has to agree with that, but that was the conclusion I came to as well.

I'll definitely have to check out this author and his book.

Salaams

Chariklo

So curious, is it not, that dyed-in-wool Christians (not to mention our former loving brothers and sisters), can be dead sure that Hebrews is inspired and yet the early church debated its inspiration?

You're hung up on the Watchtower insistence that the whole Bible is inspired. Their concept of inspiration involvesd an almost "magical" inputting of divine authority into every word in the Bible. The end result of that kind of beliief on the whole collection of writings is organisations like the Watchtower.

Sticking just to Paul, his writings and thoughts in the New Testament are just a record of one intelligent, faithful and gifted man's thoughts and words of advice to the small and rapidly-growing group that were the early Christians. They contain tremendous insights. They contain massive inspiration in the normal sense. But they are not "inspired" in the sense of more than one indovidual JW who insisted to me that "God wrote the whole Bible", merely using the minds and hands of men.

That kind of "inspiration" is rubbish. Fiction.

As to who Paul prayed to, that's a really interesting question and it has a really good answer but I'll have to address it later on. No time for more now, sorry.

Leolaia

What does Vermes say about Romans 9:5 as a doxology?

Pterist

Full or part time student , fair dinkum mate !

I worked in Perth/Fremantal for a year in 1989. ,

*** that Hebrews is inspired and yet the early church debated its inspiration?*****

Hebrews is probably my most favorite, and probably written by Apollos. It seems to end the Jewish age nicely, for the Jewish Christians, before the temple was destroyed in 70AD. The transfer of "Spiritual Israel" to the heavens as indicated in Revelation 7 and 14 ( which seems more believable from a partial preterist's point of view... That it occurred at that time around 70AD) as fullfilling Gods promises to Israel that they would be a blessings to the nations.....out of THEIR great tribulation at THAT time came blessings, as like out of the rubble came a better civilization.

Anyways, thanks for the warm welcome here, and blessings on your teaching career. My big dark mystery is a Guinness ! Lol

Later

Shalom

designs

Fury- 'New Testament Theology' by I. Howard Marshall agrees.

fulltimestudent

Apologies for not responding to other comments immediately. The next 3 weeks are busy. I've got a 15 minute PP/tutorial class presentation on Kim Il-sung on wednesday. A 2500 word essay on Ideologies in Collision-The Persecution of Catholics in Nineteenth Century Choson (Korea), the week after and a 2 hour exam the week after (all on Modern Korea).

I wanted to add to a previous response to Satanus. (remember I went out to a sunday lunch).

I think the most important developments in the early church were the political divisions as the Roman Empire faltered. These divisions gave us the forms of Christianity that still exist: The Roman Church. The Constantinople (Orthodox) Church. The Syrian Church (of the East) - now almost reduced to nothing. and the Alexandrian/Coptic Church (also under pressure).

And while the Syrian Church has failed to endure, yet for a long while it was the most important church, and so interesting as we see some evidence of syncretism with Buddhism in the extant art work in China (primarily using a lotus symbol in conjunction with the cross).

fulltimestudent

Leolaia, you asked if Vermes commented on Romans 9:5 as a doxology? Short answer, Nothing! Well, not as far as I've read. A curious omission, don't you think? Obviously, he would not agree with a 'pro-trinity' translation.

fulltimestudent

Pterist, If I'm going to spend an hour two teaching, I may need a guinness also (grin).

As a stand-in (casual) lecturer at the University where I'm enrolled I've been told I could get about $160/hour. Not sure if that will continue as our govt's are all engaged in budget cuts.

And Yeah! Fremantle would be the nicest suburb in Perth.

Who did Paul pray to:

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