by WatchTowerofBabel 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
In Scripture mentions only an archangel in Xristo Iesous, Thessalonians come with a voice of an archangel
1 Tesalonicenses 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Jaime:
Sounds strange to refer to the same person with two different names in the same line of text ?
My name is Jaime in Spanish, and also James, and Jacod and Jacques, What's strange?
Iesous Xristo voice is the voice of an archangel. That passage Paul is saying very clearly that Iesous Xristo is Archangel
Wow, the new captcha codes are great. Only took me about 15 tries to log in! And the voice audio option is so clear!
Anyways, Jaime l de Aragon, using that line of reasoning, Jesus could also be a trumpet. The preposterous idea that Jesus is Michael is one that defines the Jehovah's Witness cult. Without it, there would be little upon which to hinge a whole array of Biblical bastardizations. The Watchtower needs to be totally off the wall on key doctrines as a way to stand out; this is obvious.
My name is Jaime in Spanish, and also James, and Jacod and Jacques, What's strange?
Yeah, cuz it's easy to confuse the pronunciation and intonation of the names Jesus and Michael. Happens all the time at school with these two kids I know.
Blondie said:
"Michael and his angels"--the papacy and its supporters--fought against the dragon--pagan rulers, etc.,-- and the great dragon was cast out of heaven. Zion's Watch Tower 1879 December p.6
Interesting. Medieval Christian cults, specifically the Hussites and Waldensians, both millenialists, made the same argument as they pillaged and raped their way through Europe. The millenialist dogma isn' that new after all.
John Calvin, who led the Reformation, was one who believed 'Michael' was a designation for Jesus along with 'Angel of the Lord'.
Calvin was also a heretic.
Jaime: I've always found the use of 1 Thess 4 v 16 to support the belief a bit odd.
In one short scripture we can find out that Jesus was Michael, is also God and might perhaps also have been Louis Armstrong.
Also - Hebrews 1. The writer seems awfully frantic to make sure WHATEVER it is you believe about Christ, you don't go thinking he was an angel (whatever the rank)
Nostonecutters: I know. I used to play with a Rubik's cube if I fancied a quick puzzle, now I just try to log on here... Fun times!
Paul wrote: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first." (I Thessalonians 4:16)
Don't assume that Jesus is the one who is shouting or who is blowing the trump of God. It clearly says that the Lord shall descend from heaven with a shout, but it doesn't say he will be the one shouting. He is, after all, the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords; the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End; but if so, who is "the archangel"? As far as we know, it will either be Michael or Gabriel, both high ranking angels; but it won't be Jesus who makes the shout or blows the trump of God.
Jesus' premortal name was Jehovah, and this is indispubable. Jehovah, anciently, was the Son, and the earliest Jews understood it. Methodist theologian Margaret Barker has written extensively on this and you can find her articles and books on the Internet. Jesus clearly revealed his identity when he told the Jews, "Before Abraham was, I AM." It so enraged the Jews that they picked up stones to stone him, but he escaped. There was no misinterpreting his statement. Jehovah was the great I AM.
So, no, Jesus isn't Michael, nor is he an archangel.
I don't have too much time at the present to go into detail.
I am not with the JWs, but Russell adopted the idea that Jesus is the archangel from the Protestant reformers who taught this. Many trinitarians have taught that Jesus is the archangel.
See:
Trinitarians and Michael the Archangel
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=674
There is nothing in Hebrews 1 (or anywhere else in the Bible) that says that he who is the chief over the angels is not the chief over the angels. Indeed, Hebrews 1:4,6 indicates that Jesus is indeed the archangel.
See my studies on the Michael the Archangel:
Michael the Archangel
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=730
Is Jesus the Archangel?
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=2860
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=2966
No, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 does not say that the phònè arkhaggelou "voice/sound of an archangel" is produced by Jesus himself. The three prepositional phrases (i.e. en + dative noun) in the verse indicate the attendant circumstance or state of affairs accompanying the action indicated by the main verb. They indicate what sounds will be heard during the Lord's descent from heaven. The sense is clearer if we translate en by "amid" rather than "with":
1 Thessalonians 4:16: "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven amid a cry of command (en keleusmati) — amid the sound of an archangel and amid the trumpet call of God (en phònè arkhaggelou kai en salpiggi theou)".
Another possible way of understanding the passage is to take the attendant circumstance as temporal, i.e. "The Lord himself will descend at a cry of command — at the sound of an archangel and at the trumpet call of God". With none of these are the sounds to be construed as necessarily produced by the Lord. For a biblical text describing a very similar situation with the same preposition, consider the following:
Psalm 47:5 LXX: "God has ascended amid shouts of joy (en alalagmò), the Lord amid the sounding of trumpets (en phònè salpiggos)".
One could similarly translate "God has ascended with joyful shouting, the Lord with the sounding of trumpets," but this does not mean that God is the one who is shouting and blowing on a trumpet. The verses that follow (v. 6-8) show that it is the King's subjects on the earth who are joyfully praising him. The joyful shouting and trumpets are attending circumstances of God's ascent to his heavenly throne, just as the cry of command and the sounds from the archangel and trumpet are attending circumstances of the Lord's descent from heaven in 1 Thessalonians.
There are several other references in the OT to the sounds of cries and trumpets as attendant circumstances of events (though not necessarily employing the same syntax as Psalm 47:5 LXX and 1 Thessalonians 4:16). In Amos 1:14 LXX, the walls of Rabbah burn in fiery blazes "amid cries (meta kraugès)", and in 2:2 LXX, Moab "shall die powerless amid shouting and the cry of a trumpet (meta phònès kai kraugès salpiggos)". In Joshua 6:20 LXX, the walls of Jericho fall flat during the "sounding of trumpets (tèn phònèn tòn slapiggòn)" and a "great shout (alalagmò megalò)". Other attendant sounds are mentioned as well, such as the sound of bells heard when Aaron entered into the sanctuary (Exodus 28:35). Paul also used en prepositional phrases to indicate attendant circumstance elsewhere in his letters. Earlier in the same epistle to the church at Thessalonica, he wrote:
1 Thessalonians 1:6: "You became imitators of us and of the Lord amid much tribulation (en thlipsei pollè), welcoming the message with the joy given by the Holy Spirit".
1 Thessalonians 2:2: "But after we had already suffered and been mistreated in Philippi, as you know, we had the boldness in our God to speak to you the gospel of God amid much opposition (en pollò agòni)".
Here Paul writes that his previous preaching in the city of Thessalonica occurred in a context of persecution that he was suffering, and that the Thessalonican Christians accepted the gospel amid this persecution. The most interesting example however is in Paul's similar use of three en phrases to refer to the moment of resurrection in 1 Corinthians:
1 Corinthians 15:51-52: "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — in a brief moment of time (en atomò), in a twinkling of an eye (en rhipè ophthalmou), at the last trumpet (en tè eskhatè salpiggi). For the trumpet will sound (salpisei), the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed".
Here the attendent circumstance (the blowing of the last trumpet) is more clearly temporal than in 1 Thessalonians 4:16; Paul believes that the bodies of Christians alive at the time of the resurrection will be "changed" into incorruptible bodies at the brief, instantaneous moment when the last trumpet is blown; both events coincide in time.
