Baltimore prosecutor charges police van driver with murder, 5 other officers also charged
"Mr. Gray's death was a homicide," State's Attorney Marilyn Mosby declared. The announcement prompted whoops, hollers and shouts of "Justice!" on the courthouse steps and in the streets of Baltimore, which has faced nearly two weeks of growing anger over Freddie Gray's death. Mosby made her decision public only hours after receiving the results of the internal police investigation and an official autopsy report.
BALTIMORE - Baltimore's top prosecutor announced criminal charges Friday against all six officers suspended after a man suffered a fatal spinal injury in police custody, saying "no one is above the law."
"Mr. Gray's death was a homicide," State's Attorney Marilyn Mosby declared. His arrest was illegal and his treatment in custody amounted to murder and manslaughter, she said.
Why are people burning their city to the ground in Baltimore? How doe Looting and Mob Violence Help?
by PokerPlayerPhil 184 Replies latest social current
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OUTLAW
The Canadian Press -
Billyblobber
That should answer the question in the original post.
Peaceful protests go unnoticed.
The Civil Rights movement in the 60s wasn't much different either. People marched peacefully, it was barely covered by the media, and, instead, things like the Black Panthers/Malcom X were overplayed as fearmongering, or every time a riot erupted (normally, at that time, spurred on by the police), THAT was pushed in media, and just gave more flames to the fire for people that viewed them as animals in the first place.
The biggest/best turning point in public opinion wasn't "peaceful marches," - it was that some law enforcement was dumb enough to attack the peaceful marches on camera and turn public sentiment on the side of those marching. That's probably not going to happen in this climate, so we're basically stuck with "peaceful marches = nothing happens, riots break out, people view them as animals...er...thugs." -
Simon
"he broke his own spine while in the van flinging himself around in there"
I don't know if anyone seriously suggested that. I personally think it was a combination of things - he may have injured himself while evading arrest, been injured or roughly treated while being arrested and then injured himself or been injured further during the transport (or both). There doesn't need to be one single blow that did the damage - an injury could cause a weakness that another injury then compounds in a perfect storm. That is why it will be difficult to get a conviction IMO for some of the charges:
Injured in the van? Then why was he screaming before he was put in the van and why are the people who put him in charged? Oh, injured before the van? Then why is the van driver so responsible? A combination of contributing factors from different people? Erm ... who do we convict?
Unless they have some specific evidence (which they may well have) then it will be difficult to prove malicious intent by any individual. The crime will be some form of neglect or failure to render care. Charging all of them suggests they don't have evidence of any specific harm done by any one person.
On top of that, the chaos started when the police cut off access to public/school transportation in the middle of protests
Just to be clear. Are you saying those rioting kids are the fault of the black mayor / black police chief or some unknown white policeman contrived to "force them to riot" or it's all just a plot by "evil policemen, we don't care what color"?
You seem to be overly keen to blame the police for things. Are you seriously suggesting that the fault of looting is the police's and not the looters?
You also want to blame the media for some sort of "bias" because they showed scenes of riots rather than people protesting.
The fact is that the protesting was covered extensively as have protests in other cities. However, people walking down the street and obeying the law is generally less newsworthy than rioters looting so those images are shown more. Are you suggesting that coverage should be suppressed pr prevented? Who would decide what get's shown and what doesn't? Would you be OK if crimes by white people against black people are suppressed or is it a one-way thing?
What exactly was the protesting for? I understand if the police said "nah, it was only a black guy - we're not going to investigate that!" but that isn't what happened. The investigation had already started hadn't it? Do people really expect it to be instant? Investigations take time if they are to be thorough and effective. If anything the rioting that resulted risked destroying evidence (e.g the camera from a looted store). Sure, protest if there is a refusal to act or a cover-up ... but there didn't appear to be any of those things happening AFAICT.
It's easy to paint a picture of the bogeyman government and throw in some assassination claims. It doesn't mean they are true.
And how long is slavery or other events from history going to be used as justification for the ills of todays communities? Things from 1910? It's pre world-war one! It's like kids in the UK rioting over the injustices caused by the Earl of Downton Abbey. Nothing that can be done today can atone for anything from previous generations.
And all these things should be of no concern to a specific charge of criminal conduct *today*. They are issues for politicians to change the laws and for society to shape itself. They have no place in a discussion of a specific event and how that case is pursued and handled.
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Simon
"Mr. Gray's death was a homicide," State's Attorney Marilyn Mosby declared. His arrest was illegal and his treatment in custody amounted to murder and manslaughter, she said.
Seems funny to talk about murder by a van driver unless he ran someone over intentionally. And "murder and manslaughter"? Which is it? It can only be one or the other - aren't they exclusive?
I think involuntary manslaughter (criminally negligent homicide) is the maximum I can see based on what we know so far and that is no murder.
Or does she intend to charge those who put him in the van with manslaughter because she thinks the driver then murdered him? That would be an easy charge to defend against.
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OUTLAW
What exactly was the protesting for? I understand if the police said "nah, it was only a black guy - we're not going to investigate that!" but that isn't what happened. The investigation had already started hadn't it? Do people really expect it to be instant? Investigations take time if they are to be thorough and effective....Simon
I think that`s the Crux of it..
Black Folks feel Ignored and Unjustly Treated at times..Lots of times they are..
People get impatient Waiting for Justice.."All Hell Breaks Loose"..
At least the public see`s it`s being dealt with now..
Hopefully that calms things down..
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Simon
People get impatient waiting for Justice. All Hell breaks loose.
Many people who may be victims of crime will undoubtedly feel impatient. There are numerous times that guilty people walk free on legal technicalities or there appears to be a revolving door where people are released when we think they shouldn't be. That is why justice often involves decisions being taken out of the hands of those directly involved. It is a key feature of our systems vs other countries where it really is "mob justice". Our systems are based on the notion that it's better for guilty to go free than innocents be punished (and even the checks and balances we have are insufficient to guarantee that).
That is why it's a concerning development when justice is politicized or treated as though it can right any racial wrongs of the past.
The problem is that what works for one needs to work for all and vice versa. If people want instant justice and harsh penalties then the rules that would enable those will apply to them as well. Likewise those with long rap sheets and endless interactions with the legal system should not be horrified if the same system is slow and lenient with others.
The important thing is that like-crimes are punished in like-fashion and no one group is let-off when others who have committed identical crimes are punished.
Many think there is a problem and the divide is black vs white but I suspect it's more often rich vs poor.
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Simon
A lot of the charges seem to hinge on the notion that he was intentionally given a rough ride. How does that fit with the 2nd guy in the van who AFAIK hasn't claimed that the ride was rough, quite the opposite - that FG threw himself about? Wasn't he picked up shortly after FG? (of am I mixing up timelines).
To be rough enough to kill someone surely it needs to be rough enough to injure the other guy too?
Also, how does it fit with the video evidence of him appearing injured before being put in the van?
It seems like there are a few things that easily constitute reasonable doubt.
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recovering
Why are you so hell bent on defending the policeman Simon. Even the arrest has been deemed illegal in the first place. The refusal of the policemen to render medical aid is a crime .The inconsistencies in the police accounts should give you room for pause. The pattern of abuse by Baltimore PD was well known. Please read what a former Baltimore detective commented....
The place where prosecutors say Freddie Gray was fatally injured - the back of a Baltimore police van - is “like a black hole,” a former detective told the Daily News.
“Nobody can see what’s going on over there,” Joseph Crystal said Friday - and that was apparently how cops liked it.
The department “has a history of covering up wrongdoing,” the 31-year-old said.
SIX BALTIMORE POLICE OFFICERS CHARGED IN FREDDIE GRAY DEATH
Crystal was a detective in the BPD until Aug. 14 of last year, when he says he was hounded off the force for blowing the whistle on police brutality.
Crystal had the guts to tell Baltimore officials what he’d seen on Oct. 27, 2011, when a handcuffed drug suspect was taken out of a police van to the home of an off-duty officer named Anthony Williams at Williams’ request.
Crystal later testified that Williams dragged the suspect, Antoine Green, into the back of the house where he began beating him
Do I support rioting ? No , However I do support justice.
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Simon
How is what *other* police officers may or may not have done relevant to this case? You are making the same mistake others make in confusing social justice and recompense for prejudice against a people and wanting to translate that into a conviction of individuals. They cannot and should not pay for any crime other than any they are proven to have committed.
If that is the standard then is Gray guilty because of things *other* people in the community have been convicted of?
Can you see how it works / doesn't work if you use faulty reasoning.
The important thing is upholding the law and the process of law and not having it distorted due to someone's political aspirations or to the biases of a crowd because neither of these really achieve justice which is what people claim to want.
Do I support rioting ? No , However I do support justice.
Are you 100% sure you have a clear idea of what that justice is? Justice is a fair trial, not necessarily a conviction. It doesn't seem to me to make sense to try to claim that the driver murdered someone and also that the people who handed him over to the driver (normal practice) didn't or committed manslaughter.
I'm sure more details will come out but it seemed more like a campaign speech by the prosecutor rather than someone focusing on the process of justice.
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recovering
What do we know for sure Simon?
1. The initial arrest was illegal. The police had no probable cause for the arrest.
2. The police officers broke department policy by not rendering medical attention to Mr Gray
3. The way that Mr Gray was transported in the van was against police department policy.
4. There where unreported stops that the police van made .
5 The medical examiner has determined that Mr Gray's death was a homicide, and it was determined that Mr Gray could not have self inflicted his injuries.
6. Baltimore police have a known history of using these rides to inflict injury to persons in custody.( The police Chief, former Baltimore policemen , as well as previous court decisions have already spoken of to this)