I've found this topic and subject to be extremely powerful. This is for those who still believe in God, realize the WT is apostate, and trying to help family. (meaning I do not wish it to be used on trying to turn people athiest, I respect everyone's choices, I just believe and would hate my help to do what I feel is wrong) It might help fix things, or if you are still wondering how to awaken them without scaring them and being instantly shunned. This may also come in very handy for an apostate judicial committee.
Here are a few reasons this is so powerful. First, you are not attacking the faithful slave, the generations, anything that so called 'apostates' do. This is being very confused with why we believe and teach something when these scriptures seem to be very clear. This is bible truth, and bible truth that is so clear, it will be hard to dismiss.
I even called to ask a Bethel elder to better understand our understanding of this, and the scriptures I went over, I could sense he was thinking, he understood what I was thinking and why, and his final response was we are always learning and this subject may be refined. (I do think he'll be doing some reading or asking questions himself now) When we hung up he didn't think I was an apostate, he said keep up the good work, etc. My reason for the call was because of a big problem I am having with family now and I didn't get to really discuss this with any but felt it was so strong, and wanted to see the reaction of an elder.
The WT article though is 1/1 2007 pages 25 to 30, "The First Resurrection - Now Under Way!". Print that, that article may be your new best friend.
Apostates are the ones who 'go beyond the things written', who 'speculate', and according to 2 Tim 2:18, who teach the resurrection has already occurred. (it will happen one day but if it scriptually hasn't happened yet, then teaching so would be an apostasy)
Before I go into the article, if you are in a situation where nobody knows anything yet, and you are trying to awaken them, then I would do this in 2 or 3 phases.
Phase 1
Just 2 scriptures you noticed in your bible reading. 1 Thess 4:15-17 and 1 Cor 15:51-53. That it's interesting how you notice 1 Thess speaks of the annointed, how the dead are raised and then it seems to say those alive are caught up with them. And you wondered if that's true, how? Then noticed 1 Cor 15:51-53 which says a SACRED SECRET, that not ALL annointed will fall asleep in death, wow it says not all will die, but that their bodies would be changed in the twinkling of an eye, so the dead are being resurrected and those alive when this happens will be transformed and rise up with the dead. Just leave it at that, say it seems to be saying that, and you are going to research it because we currently believe the annointed have been resurrected since 1914 sometime, and just whoever dies dies, and that perhaps they may survive into the new world as well too, so you wanna try to understand why we believe that when those scriptures seem to say something different. If done right, they will wonder and question that as well.
Phase 2
Later on you've researched and found the 2007 WT.
I'm just going to discuss the apostacies in this article. (I'll post the entire article in my next comment) But these are just facts, you'll have to figure out your own approach to discussing this article.
It's entitled, "The first resurrection, now under way!".
Okay it begins quoting 1 Thess that those who die who are of the annointed will be the first to be resurrected, and that is true, I find all scriptures to be in harmony with that.
The conditon of the dead as being asleep or conscious of nothing, also in harmony with all the scriptures. (I'm saying these things because you'll see flat out willful speculation and big big twisting happening soon)
Next subheading is "With what sort of Body".
They quote 1 cor 15:35-40 and they put this statement afterwards....."Paul’s words show that Christians anointed with holy spirit must die before they can receive their heavenly reward. At their death, their earthly body returns to the dust."
Now the scripture says, "“How are the dead to be raised up?" then it details the difference of earthly bodies and heavenly. It does NOT say they MUST die, it's only addressing those already dead. So the statement that "annointed christians MUST DIE before getting their heavenly reward" the MUST DIE part is a lie, speculation, just not in the scripture at all.
The next scriptures about the anointed having heavenly bodies and being immortal are in harmony with the scriptures and no disagreement there.
The next subheading is "Now Under Way?"
"Called and chosen and faithful” ones must already have been resurrected if they are to be with Jesus for the final defeat of Satan’s world. Reasonably, then, anointed ones who die before Armageddon are resurrected sometime between 1914 and Armageddon." Sometime before armageddon is true, but the 1914 starting date is not unless anointing didn't begin until 1914. So the starting date is speculation.
But the article continues if a more precise time can be located. This is now where things get REALLY ...strange.
First read the scriptures it put as proof that the 24 elders represent the 144,000. It's a possibility, but no scriptures say the 144,000 are represented by them. It could also be 24 elders around Jehovah's throne and the 144,000 are another group as well. Jesus quote in Luke shows that his disciples to be on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel. There is NO definitely link or scripture that shows they are both the same thing. It's just assumed that they mean the same, maybe it is, I can't way one way or another, unless other scriptures I'm not aware of to give a definitely beyond a doubt certainty of that. (this is a minor detail at the moment, but this minor speculation is a big deal as we continue on)
After quoting scriptures about the great crowd, they make this statement. "John himself had a heavenly hope; but since he was still a man on earth when the elder spoke to him, in the vision John must represent anointed ones on earth who have not yet received their heavenly reward." Read Rev 7:9-15. Where in those scriptures can anybody even think that since John had this vision he "MUST REPRESENT ANOINTED ONES ON EARTH WHO HAVE NOT YET RECEIVED THEIR HEAVENLY REWARD?" The scriptures don't say "and I have a vision, and I was still a man on earth when the elder spoke to me". It also didn't say he was standing on the earth when he saw those things either. If that's the case then Jehovah's entire throne and all must also be on physical Earth. Or if it's because he was still a human, did they expect John to have this vision after he died and communicate it with the earth christians? John had the visions of things happening in both heaven and on the earth. That statement is a BIG DANGEROUS speculation. It's hard to understand how they could even imagine making that claim. Ask yourself if reading those scriptures would that thought have ever come to you.
The next part get worse...."What, then, can we deduce from the fact that one of the 24 elders identifies the great crowd to John? It seems that resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today. Why is that important? Because the correct identity of the great crowd was revealed to God’s anointed servants on earth in 1935. If one of the 24 elders was used to convey that important truth, he would have had to be resurrected to heaven by 1935 at the latest. That would indicate that the first resurrection began sometime between 1914 and 1935. Can we be more precise?"
Wow do you see that? They believe the annointed who had died may be 'communicating divine truths today'. If the annointed have not been resurrected, then who would be communicating those divine truths? Demons. Also, nowhere in the bible is that even taught. Does it not say the holy spirit, or spirit of truth Jesus would send? And again the scriptures say how the annointed all begin to rule at the same time.
THEY ARE SAYING A DEAD ANOINTED PERSON IS THE ONE WHO REVEALED IN 1935 THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE GREAT CROWD. NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT, NOT JESUS. If it's true, if Jehovah is doing that, if they were resurrected, then it's fine, if it's not, then it's the same as when Saul went to the witch and spoke to the ghost (demon) of Samuel.
It now continues....further speculation, "At this point, it MAY be helpful to consider what MIGHT be viewed as a bible parallel." (That statement alone is saying it's a speculation). They bring out how Jesus was annointed and then 3.5 years later was killed and resurrected. Then further speculation, "Could it, then, be reasoned that since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914, the resurrection of the faithful annointed followers began three and a half years later, in the spring of 1918? That is an interesting possibility. Although this cannot be directly confirmed in the Bible, it is not out of harmony with other scriptures that indicate that the first resurrection got under way soon after Christ’s presence began.
- ARE YOU SERIOUS?????? They admit it can't be confirmed in the bible at all, because it's simply not true! Not a single scripture in the bible yet again. A huge speculation, and going beyond the things written!
THe next quote is one of the scriptures I had mentioned, 1 Thess 4:15-17, they quote the whole scriptures. "We the living who survive to the presence of the Lord [not, to the end of his presence] shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)
First, the scripture says "who survive to the presence", but they insert [not, to the end of his presence]. That is not in the bible, so why is that put in the article? They just added words to the bible to clarify what they want to say, not that the bible felt was neccessary to clarify. but it goes on how the Lord will DESCEND from heaven with a commanding call, how the dead will rise (while he is desended, and then those who are alive who hadn't died will together with the dead be caught away to meet the Lord who had descended. That scripture alone it sounds like it happens at practically the same time. What is also interesting is that earlier in the article I mentioned how the quote about all annointed must die wasn't at all said in that scripture. And this scripture they just quoted is speaking of those who are still alive, it doesn't say they die when they are caught up as well. (so their speculation and adding to what a scripture says that annointed MUST die, that little thing makes them blind to the scripture clearly saying ones alive who had not died would be caught up as well)
Later in the article they quote 1 Cor 15:52, but they ignore vs 51. But here is what both say....51 Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
In 1 Thess 4:15-17 it was saying how the Lord descends with God's trumpet, and here it speaks of a 'sacred secret' that not all shall die, that when this event happens, the dead are raised up and those who are alive while that is happening have their bodies transformed into spirit creatures without ever having died. It's strange that both scriptures are quoted, and there is no mention on why they speak of the living being caught up and why one says some won't die but be changed. But how could they address that when earlier in the article they quote a scripture about how dead ones are raised up and say that also proves that annointed must die. The scripture didn't say that, it only was speaking about those already dead, it didn't say anything that could lead one to concluded annointed ones MUST die. And these scriptures here flat out say that some will be alive and have their bodies transformed.
Back to the article though, they next make this statement...."Therefore, anointed Christians who died before Christ’s presence were raised to heavenly life ahead of those who were still alive during Christ’s presence. This means that the first resurrection must have begun early in Christ’s presence, and it continues “during his presence." 1 Cor 15:23
If you read 1 Cor 15:20-23, in context....vs 20 says this....."However, now Christ has been raised up from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [in death]." They only quoted vs 23" But each one in his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence." Somehow they spin that to mean that Christ, the firstfruits is 1918 and the other part is when the last ones die. But in vs 20 which is not quoted, they say Christ has been raised up from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. According to the bible that part happened when the book was written. If there has been one already, it was long ago. (or maybe it was just speaking about Jesus, I am personally unsure at the moment on that). If his "presence" began in 1918 then it doesn't make sense that's when the first fruits start then those during his presence. The speculation doesn't add up.
The next part is very interesting, because I had thought of the same scriptures and example earlier but a little different outcome.
They mention Rev 6:9,10,11, about the 'souls' of those slaughed under the alter crying out when they will have justice and how they are given a robe and told to rest a little while longer.
I myself thought, okay maybe that shows there are some resurrected before the end. But I also then thought, maybe though the souls crying out is similar to abels blood crying out, and since the dead are said to be resting, them being told to rest a little while longer means like abels blood crying out, so is theirs and they must remain resting in death a little while longer.
It's interesting they also then thought of the example of the blood of abel next and quoted that, Gen 4:10. But what's interesting is they said, "Were these white robes handed out to pools of blood lying at the base of an altar? Of course not! The robes were given to the individuals whose blood was shed, as it were, on the altar. They sacrificed their lives in Jesus’ name and were now resurrected as spirits."
So since it didn't say to pools of blood they dismissed that it's not the same as Abel's blood crying out. But they seemed to have forgot or ignored the scripture of Genesis 9:4 "Only flesh with its soul—its blood—YOU must not eat." So the bible identifies blood as being the soul, so in Rev when it says the souls are crying out, it can mean just like Abel, their blood. And the bible does liken death to sleep, so being told to rest longer can mean sleep in death longer. So along with all the other scriptures, those also seem to have been speculated.
The next subheading, "What it means for us".
They admit again "God’s Word does not disclose a precise date for the first resurrection, but it does reveal that it occurs over a period of time, during Christ’s presence" - The bible doesn't give a time for that scripture on the first resurrection. They used heavey speculation to put it at 1918 though. And that scripture on the first fruits does not say during Christ's presence either. The only thing about his presence in 1 Cor was those who belonged to him during that time. The others unless only speaking about during the presence said the dead rise up (so it wasn't happening nonstop) and then the living are transformed.
The article next says this...."Will all the anointed receive their heavenly reward before the war of Armageddon? We do not know." How can they say that? Those scriptures said the living go up with those dead being raised when he comes down. Isn't it strange all the speculation on things not at all mentioned in the bible, then something that was clearly stated they say they do not know about???
So in summary, nowhere in the bible but it's speculated that all annointed must die, that the 24 elders represent the 144,000, that John's vision means that annointed would have been resurrected and communicating divine truths to annointed still living on the earth, that annointed would have started to be resurrected around 1918 and started communicating with annointed in bethel in 1935, and that it's not known if living annointed will survive after armagedon or not. All of that is out of thin air and taught as truth, with no scriptual backing.
Then speaking about apostates and their false teaching, 2 Tim 2:18 says this, "These very men have deviated from the truth, saying the resurrection has already occured; and they are subverting the faith of some."
When speaking to anyone later after having gone through that 2007 WT, just appear confused and point out those things, and how after reading all of that you noticed the scripture about apostates teaching the same thing. If it is true they aren't resurrected, why do they believe dead annointed are the ones communicating with them, it's really scary it seems they may be saying they are getting information from sources other then the holy spirit and if the annointed weren't raised it could only be demons.
It's a deep article and I wouldn't go too hard on it, if your situation is nobody knows and trying to awaken slowly.
If it's something like a judicial committee then it can be very powerful. It seems they are doing the speculating, and if your thinking is wrong for them to prove it, etc. That it's a very real and valid concern you have.
SAFE WAY to awaken, VERY POWERFUL. Even called Bethel elder on it.
by EndofMysteries 38 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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EndofMysteries
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EndofMysteries
THIS IS THE WHOLE ARTICLE, NO COMMENTS OF MINE, JUST THE ARTICLE
“The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way!
“Those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.”—1 THESSALONIANS 4:16.
“THE living are conscious that they will die.” Ever since Adam sinned, that has been true. Throughout history, everyone born has known that he would eventually die, and many have wondered: ‘What comes next? What is the condition of the dead?’ The Bible answers: “As for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.”—Ecclesiastes 9:5.
2 Is there any hope, then, for those who have died? Yes. In fact, there must be if God’s original purpose for mankind is to be fulfilled. Over the centuries, loyal servants of God have exercised faith in Jehovah’s promise about a Seed who would destroy Satan and undo the harm he did. (Genesis 3:15) Most have died. If they are to see the fulfillment of that promise and of others that Jehovah has made, they need to be raised from the dead. (Hebrews 11:13) Is such a thing possible? Yes, it is. The apostle Paul said: “There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” (Acts 24:15) Paul once resurrected a young man named Eutychus, who had fallen from a third-floor window and was “picked up dead.” This is the last of nine resurrections recorded in the Bible.—Acts 20:7-12.
3 Those nine resurrections provide a basis for faith in Paul’s statement. They strengthen our confidence in Jesus’ assurance: “The hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear [Jesus’] voice and come out.” (John 5:28, 29) What heartwarming words! And how comforting for the millions whose loved ones have fallen asleep in death!
4 The majority of those who are resurrected will come back to an earth made peaceful under God’s Kingdom. (Psalm 37:10, 11, 29; Isaiah 11:6-9; 35:5, 6; 65:21-23) However, other resurrections were to take place before that happens. First, Jesus Christ had to be resurrected to present the value of his sacrifice to God in our behalf. Jesus died and was resurrected in 33 C.E.
5 Next, anointed members of “the Israel of God” must join the Lord Jesus Christ in heavenly glory, where they will “always be with the Lord.” (Galatians 6:16; 1 Thessalonians 4:17) That event is called “the earlier resurrection” or “the first resurrection.” (Philippians 3:10, 11; Revelation 20:6) When that resurrection is completed, the time will be at hand for millions to be resurrected back to the earth with the prospect of gaining everlasting life in Paradise. Hence, whether our hope is heavenly or earthly, we have a keen interest in “the first resurrection.” What kind of resurrection is it? When does it occur?
“With What Sort of Body?”
6 In his first letter to the Corinthians, Paul raises a question about the first resurrection: “How are the dead to be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming?” He then answers the question: “What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies . . . but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him . . . The glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort.”—1 Corinthians 15:35-40.
7 Paul’s words show that Christians anointed with holy spirit must die before they can receive their heavenly reward. At their death, their earthly body returns to the dust. (Genesis 3:19) At God’s appointed time, they are resurrected with a body of a kind suitable for life in the heavens. (1 John 3:2) God also grants them immortality. That is not something they possess from birth, as if a so-called immortal soul were breathed into them. “This which is mortal must put on immortality,” says Paul. Immortality is a gift from God, “put on” by those who share in the first resurrection.—1 Corinthians 15:50, 53; Genesis 2:7; 2 Corinthians 5:1, 2, 8.
8 Only 144,000 share in the first resurrection. Jehovah began selecting them at Pentecost 33 C.E., shortly after he resurrected Jesus. All of them have “[Jesus’] name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.” (Revelation 14:1, 3) Hence, they are not selected from many different religions. All are Christians, and all proudly bear the name of the Father—Jehovah. When they are resurrected, they receive an assignment of work in the heavens. The prospect of serving God in such a direct way is simply thrilling to them.
Now Under Way?
9 When does the first resurrection occur? There is strong evidence that it is now under way. For example, compare two chapters of Revelation. First, look at Revelation chapter 12. There we read that the newly enthroned Jesus Christ, along with his holy angels, wages war against Satan and his demons. (Revelation 12:7-9) As this journal has often shown, that battle began in 1914. Notice, though, that none of Christ’s anointed followers are said to be with Jesus in that heavenly war. Now look at chapter 17 of Revelation. We read there that after the destruction of “Babylon the Great,” the Lamb will conquer the nations. Then it adds: “Also, those called and chosen and faithful with him will do so.” (Revelation 17:5, 14) “Called and chosen and faithful” ones must already have been resurrected if they are to be with Jesus for the final defeat of Satan’s world. Reasonably, then, anointed ones who die before Armageddon are resurrected sometime between 1914 and Armageddon.
10 Can we say more precisely when the first resurrection begins? An interesting clue is found at Revelation 7:9-15, where the apostle John describes his vision of “a great crowd, which no man was able to number.” The identity of that great crowd is revealed to John by one of the 24 elders, and these elders represent the 144,000 joint heirs with Christ in their heavenly glory. (Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 4:4) John himself had a heavenly hope; but since he was still a man on earth when the elder spoke to him, in the vision John must represent anointed ones on earth who have not yet received their heavenly reward.
11 What, then, can we deduce from the fact that one of the 24 elders identifies the great crowd to John? It seems that resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today. Why is that important? Because the correct identity of the great crowd was revealed to God’s anointed servants on earth in 1935. If one of the 24 elders was used to convey that important truth, he would have had to be resurrected to heaven by 1935 at the latest. That would indicate that the first resurrection began sometime between 1914 and 1935. Can we be more precise?
12 At this point, it may be helpful to consider what might be viewed as a Bible parallel. Jesus Christ was anointed as the future King of God’s Kingdom in the fall of 29 C.E. Three and a half years later, in the spring of 33 C.E., he was resurrected as a mighty spirit person. Could it, then, be reasoned that since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914, the resurrection of his faithful anointed followers began three and a half years later, in the spring of 1918? That is an interesting possibility. Although this cannot be directly confirmed in the Bible, it is not out of harmony with other scriptures that indicate that the first resurrection got under way soon after Christ’s presence began.
13 For example, Paul wrote: “We the living who survive to the presence of the Lord [not, to the end of his presence] shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) Therefore, anointed Christians who died before Christ’s presence were raised to heavenly life ahead of those who were still alive during Christ’s presence. This means that the first resurrection must have begun early in Christ’s presence, and it continues “during his presence.” (1 Corinthians 15:23) Rather than occurring all at once, the first resurrection takes place over a period of time.
“A White Robe Was Given to Each of Them”
14 Consider, too, the evidence contained in Revelation chapter 6. There Jesus is seen riding forth as a conquering King. (Revelation 6:2) The nations are embroiled in warfare of epic proportions. (Revelation 6:4) There is widespread famine. (Revelation 6:5, 6) Deadly plagues ravage mankind. (Revelation 6:8) All these prophesied events clearly fit world conditions since 1914. But something else happens. Our attention is drawn to an altar of sacrifice. At its base are “the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have.” (Revelation 6:9) Since “the soul [or, life] of the flesh is in the blood,” what is really represented as being at the foot of the altar is the blood of faithful servants of Jesus who were slaughtered because of their bold and zealous witnessing.—Leviticus 17:11.
15 Like the blood of righteous Abel, the blood of these Christian martyrs is crying out for justice. (Genesis 4:10) “They cried with a loud voice, saying: ‘Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?’” What comes next? “A white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been.”—Revelation 6:10, 11.
16 Were these white robes handed out to pools of blood lying at the base of an altar? Of course not! The robes were given to the individuals whose blood was shed, as it were, on the altar. They sacrificed their lives in Jesus’ name and were now resurrected as spirits. How do we know that? Earlier in the book of Revelation, we read: “He that conquers will thus be arrayed in white outer garments; and I will by no means blot out his name from the book of life.” Recall, too, that the 24 elders were “dressed in white outer garments, and upon their heads [were] golden crowns.” (Revelation 3:5; 4:4) So after war, famine, and pestilence began to ravage the earth, members of the 144,000 who were dead, represented by the blood at the base of the altar, were raised to heavenly life and clothed in symbolic white robes.
17 Those newly resurrected ones must “rest.” They must wait patiently for God’s day of vengeance. Their “fellow slaves,” anointed Christians still on earth, have yet to prove their integrity under trial. When the time for divine judgment arrives, the “rest” will be over. (Revelation 7:3) At that time, those resurrected ones will share with the Lord Jesus Christ in bringing destruction upon the wicked, including those who shed the blood of innocent Christians.—2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
What It Means for Us
18 God’s Word does not disclose a precise date for the first resurrection, but it does reveal that it occurs over a period of time, during Christ’s presence. The first to be resurrected are anointed Christians who died before Christ’s presence began. As Christ’s presence progresses, anointed Christians who faithfully finish their earthly course are changed “in the twinkling of an eye” into powerful spirit creatures. (1 Corinthians 15:52) Will all the anointed receive their heavenly reward before the war of Armageddon? We do not know. We do know, however, that in God’s due time, all the 144,000 will be found standing on the heavenly Mount Zion.
19 We also know that the majority of the 144,000 are already united with Christ. Only a relatively few remain on earth. What a powerful indication that the time for the execution of God’s judgment is rapidly approaching! Soon, Satan’s entire world system will be destroyed. Satan himself will be abyssed. Then, the general resurrection can begin, and faithful humans can, on the basis of Jesus’ ransom sacrifice, be raised to perfection similar to that lost by Adam. Jehovah’s prophecy recorded at Genesis 3:15 is being wonderfully fulfilled. What a grand privilege it is to be living in these times! -
yadda yadda 2
Nup, not gonna work on 99.9999% of the mind collective borg. Waaayyy too complicated and esoteric for their simple, utterly brainwashed little minds.
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EndofMysteries
The only complicated stuff is there very faulty and wrong speculation and reasoning to come with the conclusion that annointed have been resurrected starting around 1918. The few scriptures which discuss it are very simple and say otherwise. The speculation to get the current belief they may just say it's too complicated to understand and ignore the scriptures that very plainly tell the truth about it. It will really depend on how you approach it and if they would care or not.
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leaving_quietly
Oh, you've touched on a very tricky subject. As for timing,
(John 6:35-44) Jesus said to them: “I am the bread of life. He that comes to me will not get hungry at all, and he that exercises faith in me will never get thirsty at all. 36 But I have said to YOU, YOU have even seen me and yet do not believe. 37 Everything the Father gives me will come to me, and the one that comes to me I will by no means drive away; 38 because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 This is the will of him that sent me, that I should lose nothing out of all that he has given me but that I should resurrect it at the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him at the last day.” 41 Therefore the Jews began to murmur at him because he said: “I am the bread that came down from heaven”; 42 and they began saying: “Is this not Jesus the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it that now he says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 In answer Jesus said to them: “Stop murmuring among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him; and I will resurrect him in the last day. Note: not "last days" plural, "last day" singular. Three times stated. Since the GB just announced at the DC that "we are in the last day of the last days" I would expect this to be happening now. Some other things to consider: Daniel was told to seal up the words until the time of the end (Dan 12:4) John was told NOT to seal up the words: Rev 22:10 - He also tells me: "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, for the appointed time is near." Rev 1:1 even says those prophecies would "shortly take place", as does Rev 22:6. Paul, in writing 1 Cor 15:51-57 uses the word "we" and "us". That, to me, indicates he was expecting this to happen to him personally, and to those in the Corinthian congregation. Enjoy making sense out of all of this... :)
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00DAD
book marking
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EndofMysteries
leaving quiety - Yea it's tricky depending how deep you go with it, but for awakening others it's very simple if you just go on when the annointed are resurrected do the living join them or not.
Yes, Paul was expecting it to happen to them. He didn't know an exact time but he thought it was going to be during their lifetime. The scriptures I listed earlier also mention during the last trumpet. If you look in Revelation, when the 7th trumpet is blown, in Rev 11:15.
I am unsure if you just quoted those things because they are related or if you have an opinion of what they mean and hinting towards it. Such as they had been raised since Pauls time, or that Paul thought it would happen to them and was wrong, etc.
I have been a little bit also looking into the possibility we are approaching the 'end' of the 1,000 year reign instead of the beginning as well. But that is another can of worms.
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kurtbethel
That is a very good point, though there are many aspects of it and it could get convoluted in a single conversation.
I would ask about the idea of communicating with the dead. In the Bible Teach book that practice is called necromancy. It is a spiritist practice and is condemned. I would consider it bad association to be involved with anyone who practices necromancy, or any organization that gets its doctrines through communicating with the dead.
Really, the Watchtower gets more and more nonsensical and convoluted with each adjustment. They need to scrap it all, everything, and start with a Bible, interlinear, concordance and open the book to Genesis 1:1.
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Aussie Oz
Didn't the Watchtower once state that 'pastor russell was directing the work/ organization' post his death???
sure i read something to that effect a while ago...
Oz
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BroMac
yes directing from beyond the vail. finished mystery i think