Great Crowd is NOT under the New Covenant...Where does it say this?

by Christ Alone 42 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • johnnyprc
    johnnyprc

    The only thing I would mention about Michael and Jesus is that Daniel speaks to Michael doing and saying things that are later only attributed to Jesus in Revelation. Does it mean they are the same entity..? Tough one.

    Important to note that JW's are not the first people to say that, so its not like they can lay claim to some sort of special insight there. Russell associated greatly with Adventists before he broke away, and that is an Adventists teaching to this day. All JW's can do is say they copied that idea.

    Without the bible containing a scripture that says Michael was the same entity as Jesus, it comes as close as you can to suggesting that. You would have to ask yourself what John thought of when he wrote the same words (nearly word for word) as Daniel, expect subsituted Michael's name for Jesus.

    Also, what was Daniel thinking atributing to Michael the title "Prince of you people", when that title had be atributed to the Messiah??

    Since I am just a student of the bible I am not qualified to tell you what something means - but it is very interesting.

  • Rudolf
    Rudolf

    Michael the Archangel in the Bible

    .
    This could be a smallish, trivial question—but it also has the potential to lead to dangerous and cultic thinking! Let’s begin with the verses which refer to this mysterious being who does much greater things than to simply “row a boat ashore.”

    In Revelation Michael is a heavenly being of great power and authority. And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon [Lucifer] and his angels, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. So Michael is the commander of all the vast heavenly hosts.

    In the prophetic book of Daniel we find this heavenly being again, now referred to as “Michael, one of the chief princes,” and “Michael, your prince.” Then in the concluding chapter of Daniel, he begins: At that time, Michael, the great prince who protects your people will arise.

    Probably the most enigmatic reference is in the small book of Jude, which comes right before Revelation. In verse 9, the brother of James writes: Even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”
    This leads to a pivotal question, then; what is an archangel? The Bible suggests that at one point both Lucifer and Gabriel were the leading angels in the heavenly order (Isaiah 14, Luke 1:19), but only Michael is ever referred to as an archangel. The only other use of that word is in I Thessalonians 4:16, the glorious resurrection passage: For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command [shout, KJV], with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

    So here is a caveat. It is possible to surmise that this great Michael might actually be Jesus Christ himself . . . if we are clear to emphatically state that Jesus is NOT an angel! Our Savior is God from all eternity, not created, not less than the Father, and definitely not an angel. Is it possible for the archangel to be the leader of the angels, the great divine being they obey and under whose banner they fight—but not be an angel himself?

    In the Old Testament, writers sometimes interchangeably used “the Lord” and “angel of the Lord.” The Gideon story (Judges 6) tells of the angel of the Lord visiting Gideon. But as they begin to converse, suddenly it is “the Lord.” Hosea 12 describes Jacob wrestling with an angel, while the original story in Genesis 32 tells us it was God himself. In Zechariah 3, the angel of the Lord promises to take away Joshua’s sin—but to blot out sin is something only a divine God can do. In Exodus 21 God promises to send “an angel” ahead of his people Israel, and this being has the power to forgive rebellion, a power reserved for deity alone.

    If Michael is actually one of Jesus’ many Bible names, some wonder why in Jude this great archangel would not “dare” to bring a slanderous accusation against Satan. Obviously Jesus is not intimidated by Lucifer, who is a vanquished foe, and the Greek word for “dare,” tolmao, carries a meaning of “fear of retaliation.” One commentator observes, though: “He yet dared not to utter any reviling expression: not from fear of the devil; but because even in those circumstances, it was not have been consistent with the perfection of his character.”

    Whatever conclusion a student comes to, we should be warned of embracing the error made by the Jehovah’s Witnesses group: that of making Christ/Michael a created being, less than God the Father. In their literature, they state: “[Christ] was a god, but not the almighty God who is Jehovah.” The full and complete and eternal deity of our Lord Jesus is a hallmark of secure Christianity, and a truth we should never sacrifice over a disputable point like this one.

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    Where does the Bible say to pass a cup of wine and a plate of bread around before the " Christian " congregation, and STARE AT IT!!!! That is made up too!!

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    Even Judas supposedly ate and drank - although there is contraversy on that.

  • yadda yadda 2
    yadda yadda 2

    How any JW can honestly believe that the great crowd are standing in white robes before God washed in the blood of the Lamb in the very naos itself, which the Watchtower now admits is not the earthly courtyard, and still believe the great crowd is not in the new covenant is beyond me.

  • HelpMeBelieve
    HelpMeBelieve

    Well, I think Ray Publisher asked that question in different words in part 2 of his trial. Listen towards the end as he ask "D, C, and E" if they believe this very concept.

    Yes, Ray asked them if they believed "Jesus was their Mediator", "only through the "Faithful Slave is Jesus their mediator. Most JWs don't even know how to split this dogma into pieces, most wrongly belive Jesus is their Mediator. I did not enjoy bursting their bubble by telling them "No, Jesus is only mediator to the "annointed", we eat off the crumbs that fall off the dining halls table of Brooklyn.

  • Rudolf
    Rudolf

    The Holy Spirit

    .
    First, we need to ask the question this way: Who is the Holy Spirit? The Bible tells us that this “Spirit” is actually a Person, an intelligent, loving, divine being with personality and thoughts and emotions. Far from simply being the small-s “spirit” of God in this world, or an ethereal influence left behind by the teachings of Jesus when he returned to heaven, the Holy Spirit is the third fully co-equal and eternal member of the Godhead.

    Admittedly, we can’t comprehend how a “Spirit,” who is able to be actively present in Los Angeles, London, and Lesotho in a single moment, can actually have personhood. But in I Corinthians 12:11 Paul remarks about the Holy Spirit and the concept of spiritual gifts: HE gives them to each one, just as HE determines. So he makes choices and exercises judgment, and actively gives spiritual talents to men and women.

    John 14:16 declares that the Holy Spirit will “be with you forever.” He is a great (and timely) teacher; in Luke 12 Jesus promises us that the Holy Spirit will instruct us, in a moment of crisis, just what we should say. He comes into a Christian’s life (I Peter 1:2) and makes him or her holy. Right after Jesus ascended to heaven, the Holy Spirit’s descent at Pentecost gave the infant Christians the desire to witness and share their new faith; his presence energized the church for action and outreach. Three thousand new converts were emboldened in a single day.

    Now some tough news: unfortunately, it is possible to lie to the Holy Spirit. Two selfish Christians, Ananias and Sapphira, did so in the days of the early Church (Acts 5). Speaking of emotions and personality, our acts of rebellion can bring him grief (Acts 4:30).

    Especially in Protestant circles, we believe that the Holy Spirit is Jesus’ true representative here on earth. Acts 13 details how he led the new Christian church to select Barnabas and Paul for a special missionary work. And twenty centuries before the invention of Mapquest, he even guided their itinerary (Acts 16).

    One of the most beautiful metaphors in the Bible is found in Romans 8:14, 15. Those who are led by the Spirit of God, Paul writes, are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. It is one of the Holy Spirit’s paramount roles to like that of a social worker: to solidify our adoption into God’s family! He continually reminds us of what a wonderful heavenly Father we have.

    The old Christian pop song from the 1970s, “Put Your Hand in the Hand,” is a great reminder that the Holy Spirit takes our hand—and puts it in our Father’s hand. He reminds us that we are royalty, that we were chosen by God to enter into his family. When we have fears or doubts, the Spirit quietly affirms our choice to be children of a heavenly king. In fact, Ephesians twice tells us that the Holy Spirit’s encouragement seals or cements this glorious connection between our heart and God’s. Through his influence we enter into an unshakable friendship with our redeeming Father.

    A final note: there are some who timidly suggest that after the death of Jesus, there was no miraculous resurrection, no Easter triumph over death . . . but that the “spirit” of Jesus survived. No real person, only the ideas and the principle of the Golden Rule and the parables. But no! All of the New Testament dynamically proclaims that a real and living Jesus, with a body and with personality and a desire to return, lives and is in our universe today. Just so, the Holy Spirit is no vaporous philosophy or influence, but a real and explosive personal being who guides today’s Church—and each of us—toward the day of triumph.

  • raymond frantz
    raymond frantz

    I was surprised to find that there is another sect that passes the wine and the bread in Jesus' Memorial but no one is partaking of it .Do you know who they are ? SATANISTS!!! They make a mockery of Jesus meal by not partaking .Now Satan in an angel of light and will use unorthodox methods to to accomplish his end result .He will never get you to become a Satanist ,it is to obvious ,so how about creating a strange doctrine where 7,5 million people see themselves as part of the great crowd and reason from the Bible that partaking is wrong .What you get ? A mascarade satanist ritual dressed as a Christian practise .Mission accomplished !

  • raymond frantz
    raymond frantz

    Being a Jehovah's Witness I will admit that we have quite a few wrong doctrines but the Holy Spirit is a person and God is a Trinity ,NO !!! This is Babylon the Great doctrines ,proof is flimsy and very much streched

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    Scary!!!!

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