Real sad

by claudia 24 Replies latest jw friends

  • RedhorseWoman

    JT, that attitude of "what they say" vs "what they mean" really comes into play when you observe a JW discussing subjects with a non-JW on a DB.

    I occasionally post on an active JW board where "interested" people frequently ask questions. The JW's will generally cut and paste articles covering the subject matter that shows the fairly reasonable "official" Brooklyn policy on the matter.

    I will usually post in response that even though it all sounds great, any active JW "knows" that in order to be considered "mature spiritually" they will have to take the hard line on the matter. I also generally point out that the WTBTS is constantly striving to "look good to the world". Needless to say, I've taken a lot of flak over there. Fortunately, the manager, if there is one, is extremely lax and hasn't kicked me off the board completely.

  • waiting

    Hey y'all,

    My daughter is to be married this year. Big wedding. Her husband asked how many from our family would be coming? He's not jw - she's df'd years ago. I said "4". He just kinda looked at me. The first time was the hardest to say it.

    Imo, those of us who are out need to overcompensate our families who are out with us. Because the rest of our families surely won't.

    As for reading in the Book Study? We had terrible readers. Brothers tried - just didn't know how to read even adequately. We had college graduates (4), highly articulate women among the others. But nooooooo, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, reigned every week because they were men.

    hasn't kicked me off the board completely.

    Well, little miss red, it's a wonder they put up with your outspoken woman ways. Wouldn't be tolerated down here.


  • waiting

    It's not me - honest! I know how to not double post!

    SIMON!!!!! *YOUR* program is acting weird........

    Don'tcha just love how it becomes *his* when something goes wrong?

    Innocent Waiting

    Edited by - waiting on 26 January 2001 23:20:32

  • Xandit

    I have to disagree a little with what some of you are writing. I've never felt obligated to go beyond the strict written word, that what I've always used. I know a lot of other people, including elders that look at it the same way. There have never been any consequences to following that course, and no one has ever thrown that 'mature' thing at me. I know not all congregations are the same, but I've been in a number of different congregations and that's the way it's been. Some people may not have liked what I have done but I figured it was too bad for them. It has never effected things like additional responsibility, etc. Like I said, I know that's not everyone's experience, but sometimes I think we allow ourselves to be manipulated. If someone tries that stuff with me I just tell them to take a hike.

  • JT

    Redhorsewoman stated

    I will usually post in response that even though it all sounds great, any active JW "knows" that in order to be considered "mature spiritually" they will have to take the hard line on the matter.


    well stated indeed- a perfect example of that is "COLLEGE"
    While the WT never per say came out and stated YOU CAN'T GO TO COLLEGE

    any person who is truly serious and honest about what the "Mouth PC of God's view" on the matter merely has to go back and read the aticles for themselves

    allow me to share just 2 examples of where the wt "DOESN'T SAY" you can go to college but any MATURE CHRISTAIN would understand--

    wink wink

    the following is merely an example of why i laugh at guys like XANDIT"
    when persons like him make those comments like


    when you consider the CONTEXT of the following 2 examples -one quickly sees why so many jw kids didn't go to college

    while i will acknowledge that not all congo beat their young folks who went to college

    the attitude of the entire org is summed up in these 2 examples and the Mouth PC of God wanted all jw kids and parents to know it and that is why it is in PRINT- talks, skits, drama- KM, CO visit and the list goes on and on





    8. Aw,5/22/69,pg15,
    : <font color="#0000FF">If
    : you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. .....all evidence
    : in fullfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is
    : due to end in a few years. a young person you will never fullfill
    : any career that this system offers. If you are in high school and
    : thinking about a college education, it means at least four, perhaps
    : even six or eight more years to graduate into a specialized career. But
    : where will this system of things be by that time? It will be well on the
    : way toward its finish, if not actually gone!</font>

    Posted by N.H. [Pravo] on August 10, 1999 at 04:43:19 {.5VYJ7MmZUHSG.vl05doX.sgIvMbfw}:

    Some times when reading WT literature, one wonders about the mental processes of the writing staff
    in Brooklyn. Take a look at this little gem from the May 1973 KM and notice what the WTS call

    *** km 5/73 6 What is Your Heart's Desire? ***
    An elder in Korea encouraged his four children to pioneer. At a circuit assembly he and the children were interviewed. The oldest daughter related how she had been the highest scholastically in her high school. She herself wanted to go to college at one point. However, her father informed her that, while she was free to choose such a course, she could not expect financial support from him. She changed her mind about college, and now she is enjoying many blessings as a pioneer. The next oldest, a son, told how he also at one time wanted to go to college and follow a worldly course. But his father sat down and reviewed the Scriptures with him. His father also told him that, if he insisted on following a worldly course, he would also have to find another place to live. He heeded his father's counsel and is very grateful that his father was kind but firm in his stand. The two younger children explained that they were impressed by what happened to the two older ones. From the beginning they planned to become pioneers. The youngest son gave up his high school education to pioneer.

    So with this kind of "encouragement" who can blame the JW youth? "Of course you are free to go to college girl, but I won't pay for it! How "encouraging"! "If you go to college son, I will throw you out of the house! Wow, how "encouraging" that must have been folks! Of course the younger children learned a lot from all this wonderful display of "encouragement" from their father, the elder, so they gave up all thought of an education. This was in 1973, and in a competetive society like the Korean, I am sure they have enjoyed a long life of window cleaning by now, while distributing the same WT "encouragement". This little story from the 73 KM really captures the fundamental insanity of the
    WTS in an excellent way. It illustrates so clearly the tragedy of how they manage to rob people out of
    their whole lives, by forcing them to make insane "decisions" about their personal future.


  • larc


    Your comments are right on the money, and by contrast I find Xandit's comments to be very peculiar. On the 1975 thread he maintained that the majority of JW's took 1975 with a grain of salt. That's just not the way it was. To take it with a grain of salt means you don't believe it. Twice, I asked Xandit if he shared his disbeliefs regarding 1975 and the no college rule with his JW brothers, and I also asked him if he had other disbeliefs. He never did answer me.

    This thing about the WT saying we never said you can't, we just suggest that you shouldn't. That is similiar to what you face when you work for a very authoritarian boss. If he says to you, "I suggest that you do this." That is not a suggestion. That is a direct order. Authoritarian religions are the same, as you pionted out in your examples above.

  • larc


    I don't recall you writing about yourself in any detail. Are you still a JW? If not, how long have you been out.? What kind of college degree did you get? If you are in, do you voice comments to your brothers like you do here? If you are out, why are you out? Why do you have such distain for people who have suffered? What are your other disbeliefs? The picture is very incomplete here.

  • larc


    I have a couple of other questions. What year did you graduate from college? At the time of your graduation, how many other JWs graduated from college, in a time period of plus or minus five years from the date of your graduation? When I graduated from college I was only one out of 100 JW kids that I knew, many of these being very intellectualy gifted.

    Now, you may get angry at my in your face approach, but I think these are legitimate questions based on what you have said and what you have not said.

  • waiting

    hey larc,

    when you work for a very authoritarian boss. If he says to you, "I suggest that you do this." That is not a suggestion. That is a direct order.

    As in: Boss - "I suggest you rethink your pattern of work ethics. They don't seem to fit in well here." Employee - "I have freedom of speech - take a hike." Boss - "It's my store - you're the one who's decided to take a hike. Pack your locker."

    Freedom of speech and disassociation at it's finest.

    I think women understand the unspoken words of the WTS better than men, in general. I think it has to do with their personalities, their place within the org, within the org. family structure. When you have no power, no authority, no say, it's up to you to fit in and survive. How do you do this? Try and be a good little sister, guess what they want before they have to tell you. Elders like that, along with keeping outspoken comments to yourself.

    I remember the Korean family experience - it was strongly highlighted in the Ministry School. How Theocratic! Give a child the choice of being kicked out of his home or pioneering - reason on the scriptures for this - and the proud parent had a pioneer. By the time it happened to two, the younger kids seemed to understand the unwritten writing on the wall. Pioneer and have a roof over your head.

    Oh yeah, no one forces their kids not to further their education. We reason with them. A lot of us acted in this fashion, not all - but a lot. We were taught to treat our children like this by the WTS. We feel for it - just like being conned.


  • larc


    Following my quote, I have no idea what you where talking about.

    I think there is something that you simply don't understand at all. It is not the case of men abusing women. It is the case of the POWERFUL abusing the weak, and when a man works for a dictator, and has a family to support he does what he is told until he can escape. Some never can and live a life of quiet desperation, hoping upon hope that they can provide a meager improvement for their sons and daughters so that they might escape the slavery that they have endured. In Flint Michigan they call themselves "Shop Rats", so don't tell me that men don't understand oppression BABY!

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