Did God Invent Swords? - Logic Fallacies and Anachronisms

by cognisonance 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • cognisonance
    cognisonance


    We need not conclude that our loving Creator was the first one to make what we know as swords. Adam and Eve saw turning in front of the angels something that was blazing. What exactly was it? By the time Moses wrote the book of Genesis, swords were well-known and used in warfare. (Genesis 31:26; 34:26; 48:22; Exodus 5:21; 17:13) So Moses’ words "the flaming blade of a sword" enabled his readers to visualize to a degree what existed at the entrance of Eden. The information known in Moses’ day contributed to the understanding of such matters. And the language Moses employed must have been accurate, for Jehovah had it included in the Bible.—2 Timothy 3:16. (“Questions from Readers.” Watchtower 1 Feb. 1994: 31)


    We need not conclude that our loving Creator was the first one to make what we know as swords.


    Appeal to Consequences of a Belief, a form of a Red Herring. This appeal is being made because God couldn’t have invented the sword because that would make him seem unloving somehow. In other words, God inventing a weapon that is associated with killing would imply bad consequences, such as man imitating that invention and using it to kill each other in war. Alternatively, if God was the first to make such a weapon, that means he is the inventor of weaponry. Why would a loving God invent weapons, one thus argues. Rather it feels better to believe that war and weapons came about only from Satan and sinful men, not from a loving God.
    By the time Moses wrote the book of Genesis, swords were well-known and used in warfare. So Moses’ words "the flaming blade of a sword" enabled his readers to visualize to a degree what existed at the entrance of Eden. The information known in Moses’ day contributed to the understanding of such matters. And the language Moses employed must have been accurate, for Jehovah had it included in the Bible.

    Affirming the Consequent, a form of Circular reasoning. The bible says that God used a flaming sword. Thus, the description can be considered accurate because God had it included in the Bible.

    Now there might be more, and I'd love to hear about them as I'm trying to sharpen my critical thinking skills. Nonetheless, right here I think we have a problem, and a contradiction. One on had the author is saying it would have been unloving for God to create the sword, a weapon. I ask why this would be unloving. To which I can only think of the negative implications associated with him being the inventor of the sword. Next the author says that while God didn’t technically create the first sword, what he did have placed at the entrance of the Garden of Eden could be visualized to a degree of accuracy as being a sword. So wouldn’t the first statement about it being unloving for God to create the sword still be an issue? How is this any different? He didn’t create the sword per se, just something that resembled it. I think this shows why the first sentence is a Red Herring as it is irrelevant.

  • sir82
    sir82

    Good Lord, do you really think anyone in the WT writing department is even capable of comprehending that (let alone avoiding it)?

    These are the guys who think that the 8th-grade reading level of the WT is too difficult so they have to come up with a "simplified" version.

    These guys wouldn't know logic and/or logical fallacies if it came up and bit them in the tushie. Such matters are irrelevant for "divine education".

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    WT said:

    By the time Moses wrote the book of Genesis....

    Full-stop! Note they didn't even have the decency to put Moses in quotes (eg, "By the time "Moses" wrote the book of Genesis....").

    They're really upping the ante here, going all in, with this line:

    And the language Moses employed must have been accurate, for Jehovah had it included in the Bible.—2 Timothy 3:16.

    So when Genesis quote YHWH referring to the "evil thoughts found in the hearts of men", that WAS accurate language, proving that YHWH believed (as did all ancient men at the time "Moses" wrote Genesis) that humans' thoughts were contained in their HEARTS, and not the TRUE organ of cognition, the BRAIN?

  • mrsjones5
    mrsjones5

    Ruh Roh

  • cognisonance
    cognisonance

    A bigger problem is with what this explaination is trying to refute (that Genesis has anachronisms [A thing belonging or appropriate to a period other than that in which it exists ], and thus suggests that Genesis was not divinely inspired, but rather the product of man's imagination) . The full Questions from Readers article:


    God warned Cain that ‘sin was crouching at the entrance and for him was its craving,’ which seems to allude to a wild beast and its prey. (Genesis 4:7) Why would that language be used if before the Flood, animals ate only vegetation?

    In the books written by Moses, we find a number of verses that reflect facts or historical developments that might seem strangely out of place in their historical setting.

    For example, the account at Genesis 2:10-14 gives geographical details about the garden of Eden. Moses wrote that one river was “the one going to the east of Assyria.” But the land of Assyria derived its name from Asshur, Shem’s son born after the Flood. (Genesis 10:8-11, 22; Ezekiel 27:23; Micah 5:6) Evidently, in his accurate, inspired account, Moses simply used the term “Assyria” to refer to a region that was familiar to his readers.

    Consider another example from the early chapters of Genesis. After Adam and Eve sinned and were expelled from the garden, Jehovah prevented them from returning. How? Genesis 3:24 says: “He drove the man out and posted at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning itself continually to guard the way to the tree of life.” Notice, “the flaming blade of a sword.” Did God invent swords?

    We need not conclude that our loving Creator was the first one to make what we know as swords. Adam and Eve saw turning in front of the angels something that was blazing. What exactly was it? By the time Moses wrote the book of Genesis, swords were well-known and used in warfare. (Genesis 31:26; 34:26; 48:22; Exodus 5:21; 17:13) So Moses’ words “the flaming blade of a sword” enabled his readers to visualize to a degree what existed at the entrance of Eden. The information known in Moses’ day contributed to the understanding of such matters. And the language Moses employed must have been accurate, for Jehovah had it included in the Bible.—2 Timothy 3:16.

    Now what about Genesis 4:7? There God warned Cain: “If you turn to doing good, will there not be an exaltation? But if you do not turn to doing good, there is sin crouching at the entrance, and for you is its craving; and will you, for your part, get the mastery over it?” As noted, the language seems to portray the image of a hungry wild beast crouched to pounce on and devour prey.

    Nonetheless, evidence in the Bible points to Adam and Eve’s having been at peace with all animals. Some of the creatures may have been quite comfortable around humans, even benefiting from the nearness. Others were wild beasts, animals that naturally sought habitat away from humans. (Genesis 1:25, 30; 2:19) Yet, the Bible does not suggest that any of the animals preyed upon other animals or upon humans. Originally, God specifically assigned vegetation as the diet for both animals and humans. (Genesis 1:29, 30; 7:14-16) That did not change until after the Flood, as Genesis 9:2-5 indicates.

    What, then, of God’s warning to Cain, as we read at Genesis 4:7? Certainly the image of a savage beast crouched and ready to spring on prey would have been easily understood in Moses’ day, and we understand it too. So, again, Moses might have been using language adapted to readers familiar with the post-Flood world. And even if Cain had never seen such a creature, he would have been able to get the point of a warning that likened the sinful desire in him to a hungry, ravenous beast.

    The primary aspects that should have greater impact on us are these: God’s kindness in warning Cain, the value of humbly accepting counsel, how easily jealousy can corrupt one, and how seriously we should take other divine warnings that God put in the Scriptures for us.—Exodus 18:20; Ecclesiastes 12:12; Ezekiel 3:17-21; 1 Corinthians 10:11; Hebrews 12:11; James 1:14, 15; Jude 7, 11.


  • TD
    TD

    It's also a distinction without a difference fallacy.

    It doesn't matter if 'Sword' is the correct word for the spinning 'Thing' or not. If the spinning 'Thing' was lethal by design, then it was a weapon by default. And there's no moral difference between the assertion that God introduced humans to weapons vs. God introduced humans to swords.

  • cognisonance
    cognisonance

    TD, thanks for the distinction without a difference fallacy.

    This one does, however,"help" with the overall explaination the Watchtower provides against the claim that God didn't write the bible becuase it speaks of swords in a time when there shouldn't have been any. As you are likely aware there is a "fallacy fallacy". Just becuase one is making logic fallicies in an argument, doesn't mean their overall position is automatically wrong. (I'm Not saying I accept God wrote the bible)

  • TD
    TD

    Just becuase one is making logic fallicies in an argument, doesn't mean their overall position is automatically wrong.

    True, but it seems to me that the overall message of the article is that God is not responsible in any way for violence among humans and animals (?)

    The idea of an all vegetarian antedeluvian ecology is so far beyond Pluto that I'm not even going to bother with it.

    But if introducing a creative and imitative creature like Man to the concept of weapons doesn't incur some responsibility for any violence that follows, I don't know what does.

  • transhuman68
    transhuman68

    Nicely done!

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Moses wrote that one river was “the one going to the east of Assyria.” But the land of Assyria derived its name from Asshur, Shem’s son born after the Flood. (Genesis 10:8-11, 22; Ezekiel 27:23; Micah 5:6) Evidently, in his accurate, inspired account, Moses simply used the term “Assyria” to refer to a region that was familiar to his readers.

    The question is moot since after the flood, we have no idea whether the ark even came down where it embarked. The rain came for 40 days and 40 nights, but the water kept rising for a total of 110 days and was most likely driven for months before the waters began to recede.

    By the time the water subsided, the land had changed dramatically. Lifespans also began going down from nearly a thousand years to what we have today, though it happened incrementally. The landscape Noah and his family knew before the flood most likely was completely alien from that after the flood. In fact, the ark may have been launched in the Western Hemisphere or what is now Australia for all we know. To think it would come down in the same place it embarked from is a bit unlikely at any length. The wind blew furiously upon the ark until the waters began to recede and came to rest in the mountains in or near Turkey's Mount Ararat. So the location of the Garden of Eden could have been anywhere where the waters of the flood were.
    Regarding swords, how are we to explain the swords used in heaven in the Apocalypse of John? Are we to suppose that man invented swords and that God began producing them in heaven? The Watchtower writers are exceedingly narrow minded, as usual in that they assume that this Earth is the only one that God ever created. Some early apocryphal texts not discovered until 1947-48 speak of the works of God being eternal, including the creation of other inhabited worlds. If there were, and are, other such worlds, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to think that swords would be weapons devised by the inhabitants of these worlds — worlds that came into being long before this one. And even if this world is the only inhabited creation of God in all the centillions (10600) of eons (which is only the briefest of moments when discussing eternity), I can't believe the Watchtower is talking about who came up with the idea of swords!

    Talk about stoopidity (duh!)….

    Why would that language be used if before the Flood, animals ate only vegetation?

    Well, if that’s true, why did God give Adam and Eve “skins” following their transgression: “Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.” (Genesis 3:21-23)

    After Adam and Eve sinned and were expelled from the garden, Jehovah prevented them from returning. How? Genesis 3:24 says: “He drove the man out and posted at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning itself continually to guard the way to the tree of life.”

    Doesn’t God know all things from the beginning? Are not all things one eternal round to God? Where did Adam and Eve get their first suits of clothing? And if the Watchtower’s going to answer all such questions, are all those who are resurrected to an eternity of life in a Garden Setting going to be clothed, or are they going to be naked, which was their original states? If Adam and Eve were naked and unashamed, what of the “great crowd” who are going to have to endure eternity picking flowers and having family reunions? Indeed, how is man going to find fulfillment in a world without swords? And what of the anointed? What will they do for the rest of eternity? They will rule those on Earth, we’re told, but if they are resurrected spirits, why not are all righteous people similarly resurrected? And what will they, as spirits, do to fulfill the measure of their creation? Will they help create other worlds?

    John said that those who are resurrected will be “co-heirs with Christ.” Tertullion wrote: “For we shall be even gods, if we shall deserve to be among those of whom He declared, ‘I have said, You are gods’ and, ‘God stands in the congregation of the gods.’ But this comes of His own grace, not from any property in us, because it is He alone who can make gods.” And Paul writes, that Jesus, being in the “brightness of [the Father’s] glory, and the express image of his person” who, when He had purged our sins, exercised “all things by the word of his power.” (Hebrews 1:3) If He is the heir and the anointed are his co-heirs, then the power of the anointed is going to be virtually limitless when compared to that of the “great crowd.” For the latter pales in glory and dominion in comparison to the former.

    Jesus, says John, speaks with the power of a “two-edged sword,” meaning power. And note His description of Jesus, who had a physical resurrection and was NOT a spirit, a point He repeatedly made to His disciples, but which was lost to the members of the General Body: “His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire. And his feet [was] like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword: and his [face] was as the sun [which] shineth in his strength.”

    This description is clearly of a being who is not a spirit; nevertheless, whether it is or isn’t, one wonders how it is that swords now seem to be in full production! If it were a revelation given in our day, would John write, “…and out of his mouth went a fully loaded AK-47”? The imagery somehow would seem…lacking.

    My point in all this is that eternity is a very long time, and the General Body seems to have a very limited outlook. The declaration that “we need not conclude that our loving Creator was the first one to make what we know as swords” is patently absurd as is most of the Watchtower’s corny observations. And the one that sticks in my gullet is the doctrine of the “great crowd.” An eternity living in a garden. Why wouldn’t most people prefer being super spirit beings [presumably like Jesus] to trillions of years having bake sales and family reunions? Do they not see the inherent problems with that kind of theology? Maybe God didn’t intend for Adam and Eve to spend eternity in a goldfish bowl. If I were an investigator interested in joining the Organization for some reason, I’d have no desire to be in the great crowd. I’d want to know how to become a being of power and glory.

    Advantages of The Resurrected Classes

    The advantages of being a member of the Anointed Ones are obvious: Faster than light travel, the ability to go through walls and ceilings, inter-dimensional migration, ability to levitate and to command the elements, limitless ability to learn, power to visit faraway kingdoms and places, and ability to learn about and visit stars and galaxies, helping to create other inhabited worlds and act as angels, to name just a few. Advantages of being a member of the Great Crowd: Power to plan family reunions, ability to hike, bike and visit various places on the Earth, ability to learn musical instruments, sing, paint, bungee jump, parachute, ski, learn Photoshop, bike, mountain climb, photography, cliff climbing, learning astronomy through telescopes, and mastering all those recipes you've been dying to try out. You can also read all the books the anointed ones approve and especially all those back issues of the Watchtower and Awake! You can also visit all the charred bones of the wicked ones that Jehoval slew. That would include all Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Scientologists, Muslims, atheists, agnostics and, of course, those who apostatized from the Organization. And you have all eternity to do these things. Trillions of years of family reunions and religious meetings. Oh, and you can sleep in any day you want. Who could ask for more than that?

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