I am just curious about something. The term great crowd of other sheep does not exist in the scriptures. While looking into the Great Crowd of Revelation I noticed that Revelation 19:1 is not included in the index under the term Great Crowd. I have not found any discussions on this verse in the CD-library, yet, except that this group praises God. What is also interesting is that when you go famous verses such as Revelation 7:9 and check the cross references you are NEVER taken to Revelation 19:1, at least I have not found an instance of it being listed. If you follow the cross references you go all over the bible, but so far never to Revelation 19:1. In fact the cross-reference for Revelation 19:1 doesn't even take you to another scripture mentioning the great crowd. Has anyone looked into this? Just curious, and as I said I am still checking so I am not making any statements or claiming to have an answer at this time.
Revelation 19:1 omitted from NWT index?
by DATA-DOG 19 Replies latest watchtower bible
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NeverKnew
That was the EXACT verse that created a HUGE fall-out with my JW friend a little more than a month ago!
Me: Where did you say you believe the great crowd is?
JW: On earth!!!!
Me: Can we look at Rev 19:1?
JW: Sure! (flipping through pages of my ESV) it says... 'After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven, crying out, "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God...'
Me: *blank stare with the sound of crickets getting louder*
JW: (reading my blank stare as the realization of what they had just read hit them)
JW: "Oh, the WATCHTOWER can explain THAT! NO PROBLEM!!!!" *with a huge grin on his face* (oral emphasis his)
I lost it. To be honest I can't even remember what I said. I'm sure it included a failure to trust the Bible as the authority. Regrettably, it wasn't very supportive. It was two weeks before we communicated with each other. Now I'm wondering if he attempted to get more information on that verse.
Are you saying that an explanation of that verse can't be found anywhere?
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St George of England
*** rs p. 168 par. 1 Heaven ***
The “great crowd in heaven” referred to at Revelation 19:1, 6 is not the same as the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9. The ones in heaven are not described as being “out of all nations” or as ascribing their salvation to the Lamb; they are angels. The expression “great crowd” is used in a variety of contexts in the Bible.—Mark 5:24; 6:34; 12:37.
George
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Jeffro
Back in the 1 May 1951 issue of The Watchtower they said:
On the contrary, “I heard what was as a voice of a great crowd and as a sound of many waters and as a sound of heavy thunders. They said: ‘Praise Jah, you people, because Jehovah our God, the Almighty, has begun to rule as king.’” (Rev. 19:6, NW) If our hopes are that we will be found in that great crowd which will be carried through the battle of the great day of God Almighty, we must be found in the great crowd of praisers of Jehovah now before Armageddon engaging in his worship.
The article also asked the question:
In fulfillment of Revelation 19:6 what is a great crowd now saying, and why?
After that, they remained relatively silent on the verse until some speculation in the Reasoning book that it's 'not the same great crowd' (because of the special magical reason).
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The Searcher
There are probably numerous examples in the Bible where the same word/s are used, but refer to different subjects. Simple one is 'Lord', as seen at Psalm 110:1 and elsewhere in the Scriptures. Or 'sea' & 'waters', where they can be literal or figurative - representing peoples.
The Bible truth is, the term 'other sheep' does not refer to those with an earthly hope, it refers to non-Jews, or Gentiles.
At John 10:16 Jesus said, "And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd."
How would these 'other sheep' be identified? To identify them, (beyond all reasonable doubt) we only have have to reason on the Scriptures.
Jesus had previously given his disciples the order, "Do not go off into the road of the nations, and do not enter into a Sa·mar´i·tan city; but, instead, go continually to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matt. 10:5,6)
"I was not sent forth to any but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
(Matt. 15:24)On both of these occasions, Jesus identifies the only group of people to whom he was to preach - the Jews!
This fulfilled Daniel's prophecy about the old covenant being kept operative for the Jews for 42 months after Jesus' death. Only after that time period had elapsed, would the the Gentiles be called in.
Paul confirmed this when he wrote, "For I am not ashamed of the good news; it is, in fact, God’s power for salvation to everyone having faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek", (Gentiles) (Rom. 1:16) as well as, "for the Jew first and also for the Greek". (Rom. 2:10)
The Insight Book very concisely summarises the identity of the 'other sheep':"Jesus’ sacrificial death on the torture stake also provided the basis for canceling the Mosaic Law, which divided the Jews from the non-Jews. Therefore, upon becoming Christians, both peoples could be at peace with God and with one another. The apostle Paul wrote: "[Jesus] is our peace, he who made the two parties one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace; and that he might fully reconcile both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake". (it-2 p. 592 Peace)
Therefore, Jesus' 'other sheep' (non-Jews) would unite with Jews as one flock, under one shepherd.
By stating that they would become "one flock, one shepherd", Jesus made it clear that there would be no distinctions or classes amongst his sheep. He said, "All you are brothers". (Matt. 23:8)
The true context of Jesus' words at John 10:16 becomes crystal clear by reading from John 9:40. Jesus was speaking with the Jews and Pharisees who were following him around. He was not having a personal chat with his "little flock".
From that verse onwards, Jesus is speaking of all those who would become his sheep, starting with 'this fold', (the Jews) the people to whom he was addressing.
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The Searcher
Sorry for the repetition - just wanted to tidy up the errors.
There are probably numerous examples in the Bible where the same word/s are used, but refer to different subjects. Simple one is 'Lord', as seen at Psalm 110:1 and elsewhere in the Scriptures. Or 'sea' & 'waters', where they can be literal or figurative - representing peoples.
The Bible truth is, the term 'other sheep' does not refer to those with an earthly hope, it refers to non-Jews, or Gentiles.
At John 10:16 Jesus said, "And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd."
How would these 'other sheep' be identified? To identify them, (beyond all reasonable doubt) we only have have to reason on the Scriptures.
Jesus had previously given his disciples the order, "Do not go off into the road of the nations, and do not enter into a Sa·mar´i·tan city; but, instead, go continually to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matt. 10:5,6)
"I was not sent forth to any but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matt. 15:24)
On both of these occasions, Jesus identifies the only group of people to whom he was to preach - the Jews!
This fulfilled Daniel's prophecy about the old covenant being kept operative for the Jews for 42 months after Jesus' death. Only after that time period had elapsed, would the the Gentiles be called in.
Paul confirmed this when he wrote, "For I am not ashamed of the good news; it is, in fact, God’s power for salvation to everyone having faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek", (Gentiles) (Rom. 1:16) as well as, "for the Jew first and also for the Greek". (Rom. 2:10)
The Insight Book very concisely summarises the identity of the 'other sheep': "Jesus’ sacrificial death on the torture stake also provided the basis for canceling the Mosaic Law, which divided the Jews from the non-Jews. Therefore, upon becoming Christians, both peoples could be at peace with God and with one another. The apostle Paul wrote: "[Jesus] is our peace, he who made the two parties one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace; and that he might fully reconcile both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake". (it-2 p. 592 Peace)
Therefore, Jesus' 'other sheep' (non-Jews) would unite with Jews as one flock, under one shepherd.
By stating that they would become "one flock, one shepherd", Jesus made it clear that there would be no distinctions or classes amongst his sheep. He said, "All you are brothers". (Matt. 23:8)
The true context of Jesus' words at John 10:16 becomes crystal clear by reading from John 9:40. Jesus was speaking with the Jews and Pharisees who were following him around. He was not having a personal chat with his "little flock".
From that verse onwards, Jesus is speaking of all those who would become his sheep, starting with 'this fold', (the Jews) the people to whom he was addressing.
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blondie
WT references
*** rs p. 167 - p. 168 Heaven ***
Do those of the “great crowd” referred to at Revelation 7:9, 10 also go to heaven?
Revelation does not say of them, as it does of the 144,000, that they are “bought from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion.—Rev. 14:1-3.
The description of them as “standing before the throne and before the Lamb” indicates, not necessarily a location, but an approved condition. (Compare Revelation 6:17; Luke 21:36.) The expression “before the throne” (Greek, e·no′pi·ontouthro′ nou; literally, “in sight of the throne”) does not require that they be in heaven. Their position is simply “in sight” of God, who tells us that from heaven he beholds the sons of men.—Ps. 11:4; compare Matthew 25:31-33; Luke 1:74, 75; Acts 10:33.
The “great crowd in heaven” referred to at Revelation 19:1, 6 is not the same as the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9. The ones in heaven are not described as being “out of all nations” or as ascribing their salvation to the Lamb; they are angels. The expression “great crowd” is used in a variety of contexts in the Bible.—Mark 5:24; 6:34; 12:37.
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jonathan dough
*** rs p. 168 par. 1 Heaven ***
The “great crowd in heaven” referred to at Revelation 19:1, 6 is not the same as the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9. The ones in heaven are not described as being “out of all nations” or as ascribing their salvation to the Lamb; they are angels. The expression “great crowd” is used in a variety of contexts in the Bible.—Mark 5:24; 6:34; 12:37.
Regardless of how the JWs misinterpret Rev. 19:1, the Great Crowd cannot live in a paradise on earth ruled over by an elite 144,000 from heaven. Their theories are baseless. Psalm 9:6 completely undermines the Jehovah's Witnesses' multiple salvation plans. They believe that a ruling elite of 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses will eventually reign from heaven over a vast multitude of converted Jehovah's Witnesses on earth. With respect to all dead people, it provides: "Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and they have no more forever any share in all that is done under the sun." (Psalm 9:6, RSV) (emphasis added).
For the majority of mankind, the Jehovah's Witnesses' salvation mantra is, “You can live forever in paradise on earth.” But Ecclesiastes 9:6 just quoted makes that impossible. If the dead “never again have part in anything that is done under the sun (on earth), they cannot live forever in paradise on earth. Mainstream Christianity averts this conundrum because they recognize that the Christian's supernatural reward is in heaven for all redeemed believers. It most certainly is not limited to 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses.
Furthermore, Because the earth shall be destroyed, the resurrected, and the Great Crowd, cannot be reigned, or ruled, over by the 144,000 from heaven. The Greek word basileuo “to reign,” does not only mean to “rule over a people.” It is often used in other ways, such as to “reign in life” (Rom. 5:17) where ‘shall reign in life’ indicates the activity of life in fellowship with Christ in His sovereign power, reaching its fullness hereafter; 1 Cor. 4:8…” (Vine’s, 52). One can also reign over sin (Rom. 6:12). Grace can also reign (Rom. 5:21). With this in mind it does not automatically or logically follow that there must be someone over whom the 144,000 reign on earth in the same way that contemporary governments rule over a people in today’s world.
As a matter of fact, even though the Jehovah's Witnesses claim that the Bible does not tell us what the 144,000 will do after the thousand year reign is over, Revelation 22:3,4 informs us that God's servants will worship him and "shall reign forever and ever." But reign over who? They claim that at that time no one will stand between God and man, most certainly not Jesus (Insight, 170); the kingdom will have been handed over, death will be no more and man will be forever perfect.
But if that is true the word "reign" cannot mean to rule over humans on earth, especially on an earth destined for fire and complete destruction which is made clear by 2 Peter 3:10,11: "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a mighty roar and the elements will be dissolved by fire and the earth and everything in it will be found out. ... everything is to be dissolved this way," (NAB; "Total destruction is assumed (11)," notes 3,10). "...the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat" (2 Peter 3:12). "But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men" (2 Peter 3:7). Peter's warning reemphasized Zephaniah's warning, where the ancient prophet transmitted the Almighty's words, "I will utterly consume all things from off the face of the ground, saith Jehovah. I will consume man and beast; I will consume the birds of the heavens, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumbling blocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the face of the ground, saith Jehovah" (Zephaniah 1:2,3)Complete destruction of man on earth is intended. " Their blood will be poured out like dust and their entrails like dung. 18 Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to save them on the day of the LORD’s wrath.” In the fire of his jealousy the whole earth will be consumed, for he will make a sudden end of all who live on the earth (Zephaniah 1:17, 18). The Jehovah's Witnesses theory that they alone, their great crowd, will survive Armageddon and be ruled from heaven by the 144,000 is simply not in accord with Scripture.
Granted, the Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe the earth will be destroyed and base this teaching in large part on Psalm 37:29 where the psalmist wrote, "The just will possess the land (earth) and live in it forever." However, the earth "wears out like a garment (Isa. 51:6), so the word "forever" is hyperbole, and nothing here indicates that there won't be a hiatus, or break, in the earth's habitation. Psalm 37:29 does not say man will inherit the earth continuously without interruption, and Revelation 21:10,27 suggests that reconstituted, glorified man, without the warts, will come back down out of heaven sometime in the future: "He took me in spirit to a great high mountain and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God." "Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life."
Actually, the earth has experienced significant disruptions evidenced by the annihilation of the dinosaurs and great flood of Noah's day. Remember, we are dealing with geologic time, and cycling through another ice age that would wipe off the post-apocalyptic mess left in the wake of Armageddon is entirely within reason; it is more reasonable than handing the Great Crowd brooms and haz-mat suits and ordering them to restore the earth into a paradise.
More to the point is Peter's comparison of the earth's pending fiery destruction to the great flood which is a real, not metaphorical, example of earth's fate as detailed at 2 Peter 3:5-13: "They deliberately ignore the fact that the heavens existed of old and earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God; through these the world that then existed was destroyed, deluged with water. The present heavens and earth have been reserved by the same word of fire kept for the day of judgment and of destruction of the godless." Jesus likewise made it known that ultimate destruction will be modeled after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, where Luke 17:29 makes it abundantly clear God destroyed them all. That man's governments are changed in the process goes without saying. Remember, "...he was seated on the throne and said, "Behold, I am making all things new. (Rev. 21:5).To "reign," then, must mean to reign in life or over sin, and old-world government models such as king David's rule over God's people do not necessarily apply to a new world, a new earth and a new creation. As a point of interest, this is the meaning ascribed to the concept of "reign" by the Catholic church.
Like other numerical values in this book, the thousand years are not to be taken literally; they symbolize the long period of time between the chaining up of Satan (a symbol for Christ's resurrection victory over death and the forces of evil) and the end of the world. During this time God's people share in the glorious reign of God that is present to them by virtue of their baptismal victory over death and sin; cf Rom 6, 1-8; Jn 5, 24-25; 16, 33; 1 Jn 3,14; Eph 2,1. (NAB, note Rev. 20:1-6)
Finally, if the Great Crowd is in heaven and not on earth as the Jehovah's Witnesses claim, the 144,000 cannot rule over them as earthly subjects.
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jonathan dough
The Great Crowd of Revelation 7:9 standing before God’s throne in heaven and before the Lamb is not standing on earth merely in an ‘approved condition’ but is in heaven contrary to the Jehovah's Witnesses' teachings.
First, Revelation 7:9 provides: “After these things I saw, and, look, a great crowd which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb ….” As with the Great Crowd, Revelation 14:1 also has the 144,000 standing in heaven with the Lamb, Jesus Christ. “And I saw, and, look! The Lamb standing upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand.”
The Greek verb histemi - to stand or standing - is used for both groups of individuals, but whereas the 144,000 are regarded as physically (as spiritual creatures) standing in the direct presence of the Lamb in heaven, the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe the Great Crowd on the other hand are actually on earth and stand only metaphorically before God; they are standing in an approved condition, or position, in the sight of God only. The Jehovah's Witnesses are aware of their conundrum.
This poses the question: if the “great crowd” are persons who gain salvation and remain on earth, how could they be said to be ‘standing before God’s throne and before the Lamb’? (Re 7:9) The position of ‘standing’ is sometimes used in the Bible to indicate the holding of a favored or approved position in the eyes of one in whose presence the individual or group stands. (Ps 1:5; 5:5; Pr 22:29, AT; Lu 1:19). In fact, in the previous chapter of Revelation, “the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and every free person” are depicted as seeking to hide themselves “from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Re 6:15-17; compare Lu 21:36). It thus appears that the “great crowd” is formed of those persons who have been preserved during that time of wrath and who have been able to “stand” as approved by God and the Lamb. (Insight, 997).
However, it is noteworthy that the definition of histemi (standing or to stand) does not contain the notion of a ‘favored or approved position’ or condition according to the entry for histemi or a derivative paristemi, in Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (Vine’s Greek Dictionary). And as to its application at Revelation 6:15-17, which they cite, those depicted as hiding themselves are about to be destroyed, so they can hardly be said to be standing or seeking to stand in an "approved condition" before God. Other translations render the word “withstand.” (NAB).
Secondly, the Great Crowd cannot be standing in an approved condition on earth because Revelation 9:1-6 details the account of the Fifth Trumpet where locusts, given the power of scorpions, are instructed to torment and harm all those on earth who do not have the “seal of God on their foreheads.”
1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet. And I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to the earth, and the key of the pit of the abyss was given him. 2 And he opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke ascended out of the pit as the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun was darkened, also the air, by the smoke of the pit. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came forth upon the earth; and authority was given them, the same authority as the scorpions of the earth have. 4 And they were told to harm no vegetation of the earth nor any green thing nor any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And it was granted the [locusts], not to kill them, but that these should be tormented five months, and the torment upon them was as torment by a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 And in those days the men will seek death but will by no means find it, and they will desire to die but death keeps fleeing from them. (Rev. 9:1-6 NWT).
According to the Jehovah’s Witnesses only the 144,000 have the seal of God on their foreheads, not the Great Crowd or anyone else.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:…. (Rev. 7:2-4 NWT)
Because the torment on the Great Crowd and others is to be so great that they will seek death it is difficult to imagine that the Great Crowd is standing on earth in an approved condition before God.
Third, one of the twenty-four elders in heaven upon seeing the Great Crowd comments “where did they come from?” (Rev. 7:13), which suggests they arrived from someplace else, namely earth.
Fourth, the Jehovah’s Witnesses deny the Great Crowd’s presence in heaven because “Revelation does not say of them, as it does of the 144,000 that they are bought from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion. Rev 14:1-3.” (Reasoning, 167) But the Jehovah’s Witnesses are reading Scripture too narrowly and assume that the Great Crowd and 144,000 are separate. If, as mentioned above, a strong argument can be made that the 144,000 and the Great Crowd are the same - a qualitative identification of that large multitude - then the Great Crowd has indeed been bought from the earth because they are the 144,000 and represent all Christian people, which is the view taken by the Roman Catholic Church (Revelation 14:4, notes NAB).
Furthermore, it is not the 144,000 alone who were ransomed or bought by Jesus’ blood. The Jehovah’s Witnesses distinguish the Great Crowd from the 144,000 by the fact that the Great Crowd were of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues. But according to Revelation 5:9 this includes the 144,000 who also are of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues. (Reasoning, 168).
9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” (Rev. 5:9 NWT).
Lastly, Revelation 7:15 makes it abundantly clear that the Great Crowd, their robes also washed by the blood of Christ, is in heaven because that is where God’s temple and his throne are; the Great Crowd is seen in His temple where they worship Him day and night.
15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. (Rev. 7:15 NWT).
The psalmist at Psalm 11:4 tells us where God’s temple is and where his throne is, and by virtue of Revelation 7:15 we know where the Great Crowd stands worshiping the Almighty, namely, in heaven.
“Jehovah is in his temple,
Jehovah - in the heavens is his throne.” -
breakfast of champions
Let me try:
When it comes down to it, all that the writer hears is what "sounds like" or "seemed to be" the sound of a great crowd. It doesn't mean there was a great crowd actually in heaven making noise. Jehovah's Celestial Public Address System piped in all the racket direct from the "[great crowd of other sheep]" on earth. Makes perfect sense.
Like my use of brackets?