she was not trying to BS you. in her head she was looking for a technicality. anything that would JUSTIFY lying to you such as "its ok if i save his life". yes they will lie if it suits them but they are really lying to themselves. and it always condenses to either "im saving this persons life" or "i have jehobos blessing". those 2 excuses will cover almost any circumstance.
She came back with this reply...."Jehovah's Witnesses do not 'shun'.
From a recent WT Study Article.
17 Consider just one example of the good that can come when a family loyally
upholds Jehovah’s decree not to associate with disfellowshipped relatives. A
young man had been disfellowshipped for over ten years, during which time his
father, mother, and four brothers “quit mixing in company” with him. At times,
he tried to involve himself in their activities, but to their credit, each member
of the family was steadfast in not having any contact with him. After he
was reinstated, he said that he always missed the association with his family,
especially at night when he was alone. But, he admitted, had the family associated
with him even a little, that small dose would have satisfied him. However,
because he did not receive even the slightest communication from any
of his family, the burning desire to be with them became one motivating factor
in his restoring his relationship with Jehovah. Think of that if you are ever
tempted to violate God’s command not to associate with your disfellowshipped
Yes I remember that article. I remember thinking how the implication was despicable.
Iknowall558, Kudos to your effort!
1Cor.5:11 is another good example of red herring of the Watchtower.
You may reason with her such as:
Compare 1Cor.5:11 with 2Thess. 3:14
The Watchtower refers 1Cor.5:11 to support their disfellowshipping and shunning policies and,
2Thess. 3:14 for their marking policy(in this case, you treat a marked one as a brother).
And yet, the very same Greek word is used in both scriptures. The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures published by the Watchtower Society translate it as, "to be mixing selves up with" in 1Cor 5:11 and "to mix up selves with" in 2Thess 3:14. So then,
The both scriptures should be interpreted with the same line of thought. It either 'being shunned' or 'not being shunned" but both.
It's obvious then, the Watchtower either invented 'disfellowshipping" policy or adopted it from the human tradition. You can't find the word 'disfellowship' in New World Translation. The closest word in NWT is 'expell'. Interesting enough, the word 'expell' in the Bible is associated with the Jwish tradition. It was practiced by the Pharisses(John chapter 9 is a perfect example of this).
Thanks for the info folks. Blindnomore, that is helpful. I have already discussed the Jewish and Christian traditions involving gathering for worship etc, and what it means to treat a person as a 'man of the nations' or 'as a tax collector'. She is keen to move away from this subject. I asked her what her definition of 'shunning' was and she again said, 'Lets just leave this for now and move on. It will become clearer to you as you find out more'. Think she got nervous when I said I found some Watchtower quotes that I would post to her. I will post the information and then agree to move on.
I think, you are going to help her in a large way to reason how false teh watchtower is. You might hold that question for the time being. Perhaps moves to this questions. Are Jehovah's Witnesses Spirit directed? Is the Holy Spiriti directing the organisation? If yes, then ask her who was directing the organisation before 1975? That year was prophesied to be the of the world as we know it. It did not happen. When what about today?
I think, you are going to help her in a large way to reason how false the watchtower is. You ar sawing the seeds of doubt, the seeds of truth. You might hold that question for the time being. Perhaps moves to these questions. Are Jehovah's Witnesses spirit directed? Is the Holy Spirit directing the organization? If yes, then ask her who was directing the organization before 1975? That year was prophesied to be the end of the world as we know it. It did not happen. When what about today?
iknowitall, just to play Devil's advocate here (imagine that! An apostate daring to serve as an advocate for the Devil, LOL!), but what are you trying to accomplish here? Didn't you mislead HER by posing as someone who is sincerely interested in the Bible?
Why do you feel the need to "save" others, including complete strangers, from themselves and their choices?
Allow me to suggest you still carry the "I'm doing important work" complex from the JWs, except just a different flavor of it. Most here are trying to extricate familiy members still in the JWs, which is understandable.
Before someone asks, I'm on JWN to help those who've made the choice to leave, or are contemplating the decision or questioning the JWs, but I'm not actively seeking out JWs, and esp not under false pretenses.
i dunno...1975 might be a red flag
King Solomon. I understand what you are saying. I didnt actively seek her out. She replied to a question on one of the pages, where it was asked if you must be part of the organisation in order to be saved. She responded with the answer that Jehovah sees the heart and only he will decide. I posted a link to quotes from the WT where they have stated you must be a JW, or be part of the organisation to be saved. She then conversed back and forth with me and offered me a Bible Study so that I could understand their teachings. I declined more than once but we still conversed for a while when she put the offer to me again.
I decided to accept, but explained to her that I would ask questions. That I wouldnt accept anything she put to me unless she backed it up with scripture or facts. I told her I knew about their teachings, which is true. That I am acquainted with the Bible, which is true. That I have family who are JWs, which is also true. So far, I havent lied to her.
I do the same as you on FB. I am on many of the recovery groups and do what I can to support those questioning or who are on their way out. With this particular woman, I think the reason I finally accepted her request to study is because she is a grandmother with 11 grandchildren. She is only in the org. 5yrs and I know how she would have 'changed' with her involvement with her family....(no Christmas, Birthdays, etc). Her husband is not a witness. I am thinking beyond my conversation with her and am thinking that she may be trying to indoctrinate her own kids or grandchildren. We all know the dangers of the org especially where children are concerned. Also, she is a regular pioneer trying to bring people into this cult..... there is a chance she will be successful.
I dont know if what I say or show her will wake her up even a little, but it may do so in the future. I am not going in heavy handed with her, not at all. I am going easy and trying to stay under the radar just a bit, agreeing where I see fit, and disagreeing where necessary. I know people make their own choices and if she wants to stay a JW, then she will regardless of what I say. I see it as a worthwhile thing to do. I only wish I had learned much sooner what I know now instead of wasting 24yrs of my life as a JW.