Why didn't God disfellowship Jesus for breaking the laws of the Talmud?

by I_love_Jeff 50 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • mP

    One of the only Jewish laws that jesus broke was the Sabbath law. He disliked or perhaps hated the pharisees not because they followed the laws of Moses but because of whom they are.

    We can see his dislike of the pharisees is purely personal, primarily for what they are not what they believe. We can see in the scipture below he never mentions anything but personal jdugments.


    lso, when YOU pray, YOU must not be as the hypocrites; because they like to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the broad ways to be visible to men. Truly I say to YOU , They are having their reward in full. 6 You, however, when you pray, go into your private room and, after shutting your door, pray to your Father who is in secret; then your Father who looks on in secret will repay you. 7 But when praying, do not say the same things over and over again, just as the people of the nations do, for they imagine they will get a hearing for their use of many words. 8 So, do not make yourselves like them, for God YOUR Father knows what things YOU are needing before ever YOU ask him.


    Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill; 18 for truly I say to YOU that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law by any means and not all things take place. 19 Whoever, therefore, breaks one of these least commandments and teaches mankind to that effect, he will be called ‘least’ in relation to the kingdom of the heavens. As for anyone who does them and teaches them, this one will be called ‘great’ in relation to the kingdom of the heavens. 20 For I say to YOU that if YOUR righteousness does not abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, YOU will by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens.

    In a previous chapter jesus says the laws of Moses will last forever. hardly the words of a critic. If anything Jesus is a fundy he says the Pharisees are weak and need to become more strict.

  • apostatethunder

    Jesus was no traitor. He just denounced the Pharisees because they were exploiting their own people.

    He did not promote anyone being the pawn of anyone, his message is a message of freedom actually, that’s why Christians started being persecuted.

    If you give someone a very valuable present and they reject it, how do you feel? He did help everyone that came his way.

  • mP


    Jesus was no traitor. He just denounced the Pharisees because they were exploiting their own people.

    mP -> Apos:

    Im not going to disagree about the Pharisees exploting thei rown people, all religions do, thats their business.

    Apos -> mP:

    He did not promote anyone being the pawn of anyone, his message is a message of freedom actually,

    mP -Apos:

    Im sorry that statement just isnt true. There are several scriptures, which im sure you know say quote the opposite.

    I wouldnt call telling slaves to be true to their masters, paying taxes, be obedient to Roman authorites, freedom to the jews. Its quite clearly a message of passification and obedience which only benefits the Romans. Show me where the Jesus told the Romans to give freedom to his followers.


    that’s why Christians started being persecuted.

    mP -> Apos:

    What proof have you got for this ? There is no proof of xians in any large numbers. You can search and find many articles that show this is simply untrue. Take a look at the gospels in the NT, none are contemporary the first Mark was written nearly 40 years after. Common sense will tell you, if ther really were thousands or hundreds of thousands someone would have written the message down right away and it would have been copied and copied and not lost.

    In the beginnng and for quite a while all followers of Jesus were Jews. Jews were big trouble in the ancient Roman world. They rebelled on many occassions, that why Titus came and destroyed Jerusalem. He had to do this because the religious leaders there were the source of jihad, a picture which is very familiar in places like Iran. Jesus hated the Pharisees because they were encouraging religious rebellion.

    In fact the war in 70AD was started by the son of the high priest killing some prominent Roman who came to worship in the temple. Please dont tell me about the holy of holies and all that stuff i know about all that. The point is they (the religious leaders) were in the middle of the fight. Josephus was a leader of the the rebellion in Galiliee. He was also a priest. This is the reason why Jesus hated the Pharisees because they were encouraging rebellion against his Roman masters.

    Apos ->MP:

    If you give someone a very valuable present and they reject it, how do you feel? He did help everyone that came his way.

    mP -> Apos:

    Exclusing his miracles, Jesus helped nobody. He never encouraged anyone to help orphans of the poor. The one chance he got when he some considerable money, the valuable oil he decided to use it, rather than selling and giving it to the poor.

    It would appear your imagery christology is coming through. Jesus had no present for us, he only preahed to the jews for one, and im not jewish. Im not particularly impressed by his racist attitude in this regard. For being the son of God hes not very enlightend. He also failed to condemn slavery, which seems very strange unless he was of course a stooge.

    If im wrong show me a scripture.

  • WTWizard

    I believe the whole Jesus thing is nothing more than a device written to enslave the masses. All the right hand path "holy(??)" books are designed to that end. Whether you look at Talmud, LIE-ble, Quran, or Book of Mormons, someone is enslaving someone else. Whether it be the group in the book that is doing the enslavement or on the receiving end, it's all the same. Make it appear that Jesus is going to save us, raise a "messiah" that intends to enslave mankind, and we have mission accomplished.

    Anyone doubt that? Look at how Paul developed it further. Paul was the most anti-feminist, homophobic pieces of rubbish I have ever heard of aside Jehovah himself. The writings of Paul push sex into the realm of something that is barely tolerated. Rules abound about how it is to be conducted, preventing freedom of expression of one's sexuality. Yet, Paul (Jesus, too) accepted slavery and torture of others for their religious beliefs. This concept, where sex is highly regulated but slavery and torture are condoned, runs through the whole LIE-ble. I am sure they run through Talmud, Quran, and book of Mormons as well.

    And what explains why Jesus didn't get disfellowshipped (aside that he did as good as get disfellowshipped by the Pharisees) is that he merely represents the sun. The sun is born on December 25 each year, heralded by the "three wise men" (the Belt of Orion), and the Star of Bethlehem (Sirius, which lines up with this belt and where the sun will appear on Christmas morning). The sun is our savior from the darkness of night, provides energy for life, and "dies on the cross" every year 3 days before Christmas. It is resurrected after 3 days of "death" on the Cross of the Zodiac. And the sun is quite forgiving. As a God, at least the sun doesn't condone slavery and torture, and it doesn't promote homophobia and male chauvinist pigs like the so-called apostle Paul.

  • mP


    The 3 days of death of Jesus matches the 3 days the sun sits at the trough before it begins to rise again in the sky on 25 dec. This happens because the sun folllows a curve. The sun passes the equator on easter or passover.

  • apostatethunder

    Mp, this is a debate I don’t want to start.

    Everything about Jesus character is in the Bible.

    You see him as a traitor and a collaborator with the Romans, racist at the same time, promoting slavery, and not helping anyone….that’s your reading of it, sorry can not help you.

    It is all there.

  • Robdar

    Judaism has always had various sects. We have always been rebellious and opinionated. It's expected of us and God approves.

    During Jesus' time the Sadducees and the Pharisees were prominent. (BTW, Jesus was a Pharisee because he believed in an afterlife, Sadducees didn't) Jesus, however, was a bit radical even for the Pharisees.

    Today, as it was before, we have many divisions: classical reform, conservative, orthodox, ultra orthodox, and even more that I cant recall at this time. Because each Jew stands accountable before God (without a mediator) we must read and examine the Torah for ourselves, interpret it for ourselves and do our best to follow the standards it sets. Therefore, various personal interpretations will arise. We usually have weekly discussions at the temple about the Torah.

    BTW, the Torah trumps the Talmud. The Talmud is only a written and quite lengthy interpretation of the Torah by various Jewish scholars and rabbis. Because we are commanded to study it, Jews will always discuss Torah, and they will write about it. There's an old saying: If you find 2 Jews having a discussion, there will always be at least 3 opinions.

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    I love Jeff said:

    Yes I made a mistake and meant to say Oral Traditions. My apologies.

    Thanks for recognizing that basic fact. Because anyone who says "Jesus rejected the TALMUD" is raising a Red Flag that they don't know what they're talking about. It's like Xians who say Jesus quoted NT scripture, when it hadn't even been written yet, LOL! Yes, it is THAT bad...

    Yadda Yadda 2 said:

    Well he kind of was disfellowshipped by the Pharisees wasn't he, to the point they eventually killed him? But disfellowshipped from what - walking into a synagogue? The people of his own town tried to grab him and throw him off a cliff or something.

    Well, Jesus WAS a Jew (of course), and he claimed to respect the Torah. Jesus was accused and convicted by the Sanhedrin (which was composed of both Pharisees and Sadducees, the two major branches of Judaism in Jesus' day) of blasphemy, and he was put to death for it (at Roman hands, for encouraging sedition): that's the ultimate "disfellowshipping" from the Jewish community, whether by stoning or other.

    Prognoser said:

    Yadda, how can you be disfellowshipped from something you never belonged to in the first place? Pharisaism is not based in the Old Testament, it's based in the Talmud.

    Why do you insist on appearing ignant (sic)? The Talmud didn't appear in writing for 150 years AFTER Jesus' death.

    Thus, Jesus' anger at the Pharisees. That was the whole point of Jesus chastizing the Pharisees: they had strayed from the Bible and taken up the traditions of men (Talmud, Kabbalah, etc.).

    Do you even realize that the term 'Kabbalah' wasn't coined until the Middle Ages, or 1,000 yrs AFTER Jesus allegedly died? Again, do you enjoy appearing ignorant of basics?

    The Pharisees didn't like being called out, so they had him arrested and brought before the Sanhedrin in the middle of the night when nobody was even awake. The rest, I'm sure you know.

    Uh, the Sanhedrin WAS the Jewish High Court of the day for all matters (there wasn't a difference between religion and civil law in Judaism, as they were intertwined), and the court included BOTH Pharisees AND Saduccees. Do you even understand the difference, i.e. what their ideological differences were? Do you understand the political role they played, and the power and influence they exerted over the populace? I'm guessing not....

    King, stop taking Jesus out of context. Jesus didn't say hand washing was a silly tradition.

    This coming from someone who thought Jesus denounced the Talmud and Kabbalah? :)

    Need I quote YOU, just above?

    That was the whole point of Jesus chastizing the Pharisees: they had strayed from the Bible and taken up the traditions of men

    Contradict yourself much? ;)

    FWIW, here we go: Here's one record of the "hand-washing before eating" encounter, from Mark 7

    Followers of Tradition

    1 The Pharisees and some of the scribes gathered around Him when they had come from Jerusalem, 2 and had seen that some of His disciples were eating their bread with impure hands, that is, unwashed. 3 (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully wash their hands, thus observing the traditions of the elders; 4 and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they cleanse themselves; and there are many other things which they have received in order to observe, such as the washing of cups and pitchers and copper pots.) 5 The Pharisees and the scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?”

    6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:


    8Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.

    Jesus then quickly changed the subject to something else he disagreed with them (honoring thy father and mother).....

    Jesus literally threw the baby out with the bathwater (or sink water, as you will), on the basis of protesting the "man-made practices" adopted by the Pharisees, because those same practices ACTUALLY had a scientific public-health benefit to humanity that is uncontested by any rational thinking person (at least, by those who accepts the germ theory of disease, and understands a basic principle of pathogenic bacteriology and food-borne illness. Do YOU?).

    Those same evil and bad Pharisees used other common-sense practices like dish-washing (they washed utensils and pots/pans before eating, another basic hygienic practice that SHOULD'VE been in the Torah, if YHWH had any understanding of the germ theory of disease). They also washed hands after urinating (and feet, apparently being aware of splatter), as well as after voiding their bowels. Again, common-sense YET inferior and silly "practices of men".

    He stressed that obsession with the legalism of it was. Thus the "heart of the law." Man, didn't the Watchtower teach you anything? Were you sleeping through all the meetings?

    Maybe you're not aware that the "heart of the law" and high-falutin' airy-fairy principles (such as "love your neighbor as yourself", and the Declaration of Independence's "Pursuit of Happiness") are useless UNLESS they're codified, i.e. their meaning is clarified by specific laws that explain what practices are deemed in keeping with the high-minded principles.

    If you don't have that as a society, you have mayhem, where even ignant (sic) person is allowed to do anything they like, quoting whatever misinterpretation they personally think justifies their action (eg someone who says, "I find robbing banks makes me happy, so it is protected act, per the Declaration of Independence") . Worse, you have cops who are able to arrest you for nebulous violations like, "not loving your neighbor as yourself"....

    And that's the exact reason WHY we have SCOTUS: they are the Judges who are given the task of determining which laws are in keeping with the high-minded noble principles of the Constitution, and they are the final arbiters of what is deemed as "constitutional" or not. It's why they had the Sanhedrin in Jesus' day: someone has to decide, and in fact there's the COMMAND from God in Genesis for men to rule themselves: God granted men authority to do so.

    I know you don't understand that, just as Jesus didn't: there are some who feel that it's OK to handle food while they are ill (remember Typhoid Mary?), and feel that it's OK to pass their contagious diseases onto others by working in jobs that handle food. To them, they don't see that as "not loving their neighbor", because of their ignorance. THAT'S why we need hygienic laws: to protect ourselves who aren't able to make wise decisions.

    Jesus was a dreamer, but not good at understanding the realities of life (until he was hanging on a cross/stake: that tends to get people's attention that it's dangerous to go against the grain of one's community).

  • blondie

    I do believe the Torah was said to be given by God to the Israelites.

    The Talmud were man-made rules not from God. So was Jesus obligated to keep the laws of men especially when the went against God's law?

    'make the word of God invalid'? So did God support those man-made laws? Based on the account, no.

  • Prognoser

    King Solomon, there is a ton of evidence of the Talmud's existence in Jesus time, even though it wasn't codified until many years later. Think of the advantages to the Pharisaic power structure by not having the Talmud codified. They could act just like the WTBTS and say they received "new light" yet nobody could actually check out the Talmud to verify it.

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