I love Jeff said:
Yes I made a mistake and meant to say Oral Traditions. My apologies.
Thanks for recognizing that basic fact. Because anyone who says "Jesus rejected the TALMUD" is raising a Red Flag that they don't know what they're talking about. It's like Xians who say Jesus quoted NT scripture, when it hadn't even been written yet, LOL! Yes, it is THAT bad...
Yadda Yadda 2 said:
Well he kind of was disfellowshipped by the Pharisees wasn't he, to the point they eventually killed him? But disfellowshipped from what - walking into a synagogue? The people of his own town tried to grab him and throw him off a cliff or something.
Well, Jesus WAS a Jew (of course), and he claimed to respect the Torah. Jesus was accused and convicted by the Sanhedrin (which was composed of both Pharisees and Sadducees, the two major branches of Judaism in Jesus' day) of blasphemy, and he was put to death for it (at Roman hands, for encouraging sedition): that's the ultimate "disfellowshipping" from the Jewish community, whether by stoning or other.
Prognoser said:
Yadda, how can you be disfellowshipped from something you never belonged to in the first place? Pharisaism is not based in the Old Testament, it's based in the Talmud.
Why do you insist on appearing ignant (sic)? The Talmud didn't appear in writing for 150 years AFTER Jesus' death.
Thus, Jesus' anger at the Pharisees. That was the whole point of Jesus chastizing the Pharisees: they had strayed from the Bible and taken up the traditions of men (Talmud, Kabbalah, etc.).
Do you even realize that the term 'Kabbalah' wasn't coined until the Middle Ages, or 1,000 yrs AFTER Jesus allegedly died? Again, do you enjoy appearing ignorant of basics?
The Pharisees didn't like being called out, so they had him arrested and brought before the Sanhedrin in the middle of the night when nobody was even awake. The rest, I'm sure you know.
Uh, the Sanhedrin WAS the Jewish High Court of the day for all matters (there wasn't a difference between religion and civil law in Judaism, as they were intertwined), and the court included BOTH Pharisees AND Saduccees. Do you even understand the difference, i.e. what their ideological differences were? Do you understand the political role they played, and the power and influence they exerted over the populace? I'm guessing not....
King, stop taking Jesus out of context. Jesus didn't say hand washing was a silly tradition.
This coming from someone who thought Jesus denounced the Talmud and Kabbalah? :)
Need I quote YOU, just above?
That was the whole point of Jesus chastizing the Pharisees: they had strayed from the Bible and taken up the traditions of men
Contradict yourself much? ;)
FWIW, here we go: Here's one record of the "hand-washing before eating" encounter, from Mark 7
Followers of Tradition
1 The Pharisees and some of the scribes gathered around Him when they had come from Jerusalem, 2 and had seen that some of His disciples were eating their bread with impure hands, that is, unwashed. 3 (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully wash their hands, thus observing the traditions of the elders; 4 and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they cleanse themselves; and there are many other things which they have received in order to observe, such as the washing of cups and pitchers and copper pots.) 5 The Pharisees and the scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?”
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘T HIS PEOPLE HONORS M E WITH THEIR LIPS ,
B UT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM M E .
7 ‘B UT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP M E ,
T EACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN .’
8 “Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
Jesus then quickly changed the subject to something else he disagreed with them (honoring thy father and mother).....
Jesus literally threw the baby out with the bathwater (or sink water, as you will), on the basis of protesting the "man-made practices" adopted by the Pharisees, because those same practices ACTUALLY had a scientific public-health benefit to humanity that is uncontested by any rational thinking person (at least, by those who accepts the germ theory of disease, and understands a basic principle of pathogenic bacteriology and food-borne illness. Do YOU?).
Those same evil and bad Pharisees used other common-sense practices like dish-washing (they washed utensils and pots/pans before eating, another basic hygienic practice that SHOULD'VE been in the Torah, if YHWH had any understanding of the germ theory of disease). They also washed hands after urinating (and feet, apparently being aware of splatter), as well as after voiding their bowels. Again, common-sense YET inferior and silly "practices of men".
He stressed that obsession with the legalism of it was. Thus the "heart of the law." Man, didn't the Watchtower teach you anything? Were you sleeping through all the meetings?
Maybe you're not aware that the "heart of the law" and high-falutin' airy-fairy principles (such as "love your neighbor as yourself", and the Declaration of Independence's "Pursuit of Happiness") are useless UNLESS they're codified, i.e. their meaning is clarified by specific laws that explain what practices are deemed in keeping with the high-minded principles.
If you don't have that as a society, you have mayhem, where even ignant (sic) person is allowed to do anything they like, quoting whatever misinterpretation they personally think justifies their action (eg someone who says, "I find robbing banks makes me happy, so it is protected act, per the Declaration of Independence") . Worse, you have cops who are able to arrest you for nebulous violations like, "not loving your neighbor as yourself"....
And that's the exact reason WHY we have SCOTUS: they are the Judges who are given the task of determining which laws are in keeping with the high-minded noble principles of the Constitution, and they are the final arbiters of what is deemed as "constitutional" or not. It's why they had the Sanhedrin in Jesus' day: someone has to decide, and in fact there's the COMMAND from God in Genesis for men to rule themselves: God granted men authority to do so.
I know you don't understand that, just as Jesus didn't: there are some who feel that it's OK to handle food while they are ill (remember Typhoid Mary?), and feel that it's OK to pass their contagious diseases onto others by working in jobs that handle food. To them, they don't see that as "not loving their neighbor", because of their ignorance. THAT'S why we need hygienic laws: to protect ourselves who aren't able to make wise decisions.
Jesus was a dreamer, but not good at understanding the realities of life (until he was hanging on a cross/stake: that tends to get people's attention that it's dangerous to go against the grain of one's community).
