by I_love_Jeff 50 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Jesus loathed the Talmud and broke as many of its laws as he could on any occasion that presented itself. So if Jesus broke the laws of the Talmud, wouldn't he have been disfellowshipped if he did the same thing to the Watchtower. A Jehovah's Witness can be disfellowshipped or disassociated if he/she breaks this rule in The Elder's Manual: Rebellion against Jehovah's organization.
What say you?
I have no doubt that the WTS would disfellowship Jesus. They would even disfellowship Russell (for not believing the 1914 for one thing).
~Binadub
I agree fully
Where'd you get the idea that he broke rules found in the Talmud? That would be hard to do, since it was even written yet.... :)
Maybe you mean the oral traditions that had been handed down, and treated with great significance by the Pharisees (the so-called oral laws, or "laws of men" as Jesus said, that may have eventually ended up in Talmudic law).
JWs don't care about the Talmud, either, just like they don't feel the Torah applies to them any longer, since they are typical Xians who all feel that Jesus established a new covenant.
But generally, yes, I get what you're saying: Jesus was far too much of a radical, a revolutionary, to respect and follow the rules of men....
Jesus didnt break any laws from the talmud, he was a very good Jew. This is part of the lie that xian churches propagate so they can dismiss the laws of Moses.
If yu truely beliee and follow Jesus then you should follow his example and continue with those laws. Like all religions they pick what they like and to their advantage. The facts are of course quite different from the picture painted by modern churches.
King:
Except for his money changers incident, how exactly was Jesus a revolutionary ?
He condoned slavery, told the weak to pay taxes and told slaves to be faithful to their masters.. hes just a stooge and not a champion of the weak.
An example of this was when Jesus healed a man born blind on the Sabbath. In healing him on the Sabbath, Jesus broke one of the most sacred of all Israel's fence laws as the tradition of the elders forbade one to heal on the Sabbath. The Mishna (part of the Talmud) states, "To heal a blind man on the Sabbath it is prohibited to inject wine into his eyes. It is also prohibited to make mud from spittle and smear it on his eyes." With this miracle, Jesus not only healed a man at a forbidden time, but he also did so in a forbidden way. 5
mP said:
Except for his money changers incident, how exactly was Jesus a revolutionary ?
I meant revolutionary as in "fomenting violent change", not as in "exciting and new" (as the word is used today, downplaying it's meaning).
Oh, how about when he flipped over the tables of the money changers? What else do you want? :)
He pretty clearly showed a lack of respect for the Pharisees and Saduccees, the established Jewish cults of the day: that's pretty much on par with the stunt pulled by Free Pussy.
In case you missed the sub-text, his disciples thought he WAS the Jewish Messiah: that involved displacing the Roman ruler overseers.... His disciples included a character named Simon the Zealot, a revolutionary freedom fighter who sought to rid Israel of the Roman occupying forces. There was plenty of that in the future: Jewish-Roman wars.
And whether you think they were revolutionary or not, it is almost certain that he was, as were most of the other disciples, martyred, but some say that, true to his initial work as a freedom fighter, he was killed in a Roman quashing of an uprising in Jerusalem.
Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_was_the_Revolutionary_Disciple_of_Jesus#ixzz24FA6cKa1
Jeff said:
The Mishna (part of the Talmud) states, "To heal a blind man on the Sabbath it is prohibited to inject wine into his eyes. It is also prohibited to make mud from spittle and smear it on his eyes." With this miracle, Jesus not only healed a man at a forbidden time, but he also did so in a forbidden way.
Yeah, except you (or your source) is getting the chronology all wrong. Jesus died in 30 CE. The Mishnah didn't appear until almost 200 yrs later.
From Wikipedia:
The Mishnah or Mishna (Hebrew: ???? , "repetition", from the verb shanah ??? , or "to study and review", also "secondary" [ 1 ] (derived from the adj. shani ??? )) is the first major written redaction of the Jewish oral traditions called the "Oral Torah". It is also the first major work of Rabbinic Judaism. [ 2 ]
It was redacted 220 CE by RabbiYehudah haNasi when, according to the Talmud, the persecution of the Jews and the passage of time raised the possibility that the details of the oral traditions dating from Pharisaic times (536 BCE – 70 CE) would be forgotten. It is thus named for being both the one written authority (codex) secondary (only) to the Tanakh as a basis for the passing of judgment, a source and a tool for creating laws, and the first of many books to complement the Bible in a certain aspect. The Mishnah is also called Shas (an acronym for Shisha Sedarim – the "six orders"), in reference to its six main divisions. [ 3 ]
That's specifically why I said you may have been referring to the oral traditions, but not the Talmud: those oral laws and traditions hadn't yet been written down when Jesus was alive.
Needless to say, Jesus no doubt wouldn't have approved of the Talmud, but Jews have plenty of other good (valid) reasons for rejecting his as the Jewish Messiah, since he missed on many of the Jewish Messianic prophecies in the OT....
Jesus called the Talmud "the traditions" of men that makes the Word "null and void." And the Talmud contradicts the Tanakh.
Exodus 31:14-15 "You shall keep the Sabbath, for it is holy unto you: every one that defiles it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever does any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever does any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
