New World Translation Assaults on Language and Phrases that Always Wigged Me Out!

by DarioKehl 20 Replies latest watchtower scandals

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  DarioKehl

  I listened to the August 4th episode of the HealingXJWS podcast where they interviewed a former JW Circuit Overseer. He shared many great examples of how original meanings (especially poetry) were lost in this terrible translation. It's worth listening to. Although I'm an atheist, I enjoy listening to other Xian podcasts and the hosts of this podcast are very much Xian. I dismiss the entirety of the bible because I think it is truly an awful, hateful, reprehensible book. However, I like to hear other theistic perspectives on JWs and their NWT of the holy scriptures. I figure, if I'm going to debate JWs, atheism is not the most effective route. If a doubting dub still has a strong leaning to spiritual things, it's best to get on their level and use other theistic reasoning points--and there are many! GOOD ones, too.

  One thing this guest brings up is a question that bothered me a lot in high school. This was way before I doubted god's existence, but I did have profound "but what if we're wrong" fears. I honestly wanted assurance that this belief that I'd never ever die was reliable! One of the things that always scared me was the phrase "to times indefinite." Now, this exCO really nails that down. JWs NWT just assume "to times indefinite" means "forever." But there are plenty of examples in the NWT where "to times indefinite" is used when "forever" is clearly not meant. My big fear was, "how do we know that living in the new system 'to times indefinite' means 'forever?'"

  Another phrase brought to my attention from other Xian podcasts is the substitution of the word "grace" for "undeserved kindness." That clearly shows the pathology of the "inspired" translating committee, doesn't it? It sounds so guilt-ridden and burdensome. "Grace" is loving, warm and mentally freeing. "Undeserved kindness" just makes a person feel bad. Imagine getting a Xmas gift---ooops, wait... bad example---ok, imagine getting an ANNIVERSARY or GRADUATION gift (since those are the only things allowed) and the person presenting it to you reminds you that it's "undeserved" because everyone has anniversaries and graduates. It just conveys a sense of "you're nothing but a piece of $#!+, but I'll do this for you anyway." It reminds me of getting a flat tire on the road, in the rain and calling a friend or family member for help.

  They may reply: "Oh sure! Yeah, man, are you ok? Where are you at? I'll be right there, no problem."

  but, in NWT speak, it would go: "*SIGH* ...really? How did THAT happen? Did you DRIVE over something you weren't supposed to??? Well... I JUST put the meatloaf in and sat down in my robe and slippers for Jeopardy!, but, I GUESS I can get you. It'll take a while, though, I mean, I've got my hands full! And dude...YOU OWE ME BIG TIME."

  Which one would you rather hear at the other end of that phone call? The WBTS, GB and their nasty NWT make god and hay-soos out to be bigger dicks and @$$holes than they already are!

  What other words UNIQUE TO NWT have you always had a hard time with?
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  breakfast of champions

  You know, I have never heard the difference between "grace" and "undeserved kindness" so well illustrated! I like that!

  Will check out that podcast, too. Thanks.
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  King Solomon

  I dare say most JWs and Xians haven't even bothered to look at side-by-side translations to understand the impact that the word "translation" carries, eg by checking parallel translations:

  http://bible.cc/genesis/6-7.htm

  Then click on the Hebrew of the same passage, and you see the ancient Hebrew (a language without punctuation) of the scruipture, which comes out something like this:

  said the LORD will blot man whom have created from the face of the land man and to animals against to creeping and to birds of the sky for I am for have made.

  That's a random scripture I pulled up, but you can see how there's alot of room for monkey business in rearranging words, adding alternate works, hence changing meanings (occasionally to the exact opposite of other translations). It's more like bad haiku, than anything (and Greek is no better)! It's truly insane to quibble over the semantics of words when the choice is a different for many translations, which are based on translations...
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  dropoffyourkeylee

  Here's one that always irked me:

  John 5:30, "I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me", where the wording should be "him who sent me". At least that is what I was taught in every English class, if it refers to a person the word should be 'who'. The NW translator did this repeatedly, especially in John:

  John 3:36,5:30,5:32, 6:45, 7:16,8:26, as well as Matt 5:28.

  You would think they could at least gotten the English grammar right.
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  Bobcat

  DarioKehl:

  JWs NWT just assume "to times indefinite" means "forever."

  It could be that individual JWs think "time indefinite" means "forever." But I believe the Society's position on the term is that sometimes it doesn't. The Hebrew word is olam (Strong's #5769). AMG's Hebrew dictionary defines it as "a very long time ... It may cover a given person's lifetime; a period of many generations; the time of the present created order; time beyond this temporal sphere, especially when used regarding God. The term also applies to many things associated with God, such as His decrees, His covenants, and the Messiah." So, efectively speaking, it could mean "forever" or a time of less duration, sometimes a time duration that is not easily quantified, thus "time indefinite."

  The NWT renders it as "time indefinite" to distinguish it from another word rendered "forever." There is some interesting discussion about this on the BHebrew discussion forum archives.

  Take Care
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  Quendi

  Translation is more of an art than a science, and when translating from an ancient language to a modern one, the problems are compounded. I know only a little koiné Greek and no Hebrew. However, I know Latin and translated many Latin texts and works into English back in my salad days.

  When doing that I encountered many phrases and idioms whose meaning would have been clear to a Latin-speaker but would have certainly puzzled an English-speaker. The problem for me as a translator was how to render these expressions in a way that was consistent in the Latin but comprehensible in the English. Believe me, that was sometimes a very steep challenge, especially when translating authors with writing styles as diverse as Julius Caesar, Cicero and Virgil, just to name a few.

  The problem with the New World Translation is that its committee decided not to have footnotes in its standard edition. The New World Translation with References is another matter entirely, and a careful reader can learn the reason for many of the renderings because they are explained in footnotes and appendices.

  I rather like the New World Translation, but I have also returned to using many others. That is what any Bible reader should do if he is interested in capturing the sense and flavor of the original language. But that reader should also be aware that no matter how careful or how skilled a translator is, personal philosophy, belief and level of education will color and slant his work. Equipped with that understanding, any Bible reader—whether a believer or not—will get the most out of the experience.

  Quendi
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  Jeffro

  imagine getting an ANNIVERSARY or GRADUATION gift (since those are the only things allowed)

  I hope you mean graduation from a high school or community college, and not... gasp... a UNIVERSITY. LOL
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  Jeffro

  JWs NWT just assume "to times indefinite" means "forever."

  The term "time indefinite" quite literally means, "an undefined period of time". The word "forever" appears in the NWT, in addition to the expressions "time indefinite" and "times indefinite". Some verses say "time indefinite, even forever", where a distinction is intended (though may be interpreted by some readers as a simile). The expression generally suggests a long period of unknown length, but it does not mean the same as forever.
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  apostatethunder

  Sign they are very well aware of their own hypocrisy and that they don’t even believe in God. The Bible warns sternly against adding or taking anything out of it.
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  DarioKehl

  In that same podcast episode, the guest talks about the lost meaning of the poetry quite a bit. The NWT translators were so analytical in selecting things word-for-word that the ancient cultural context (and beauty, mood and tone) of the poetry was obliterated. The Song of Solomon is a perfect example. I always HAT-ED talk #2s from that book because the direct translation into English is absolutely ridiculous. "Your breasts are like towers" probably had a greater cultural meaning in original Hebrew but I dare anyone to snag NWT SoS verses like that and use them in pickup lines at a club. See how far you get!