Christ's Intent

by jgnat 24 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    I was recently challenged by someone who sincerely believed they were speaking for Christ. If Christ spoke dire warnings to those who would not follow him, can't his mouthpiece do the same today?

    There are so many assumptions tied along that road I barely know how to start. My awakening began as many of those base assumptions have been demolished. I can no longer hang my life on a bible verse.

    1. Is it reasonable or even likely that all revelation ended 2,000 years ago? If so, that's severe divine neglect.
    2. Christ made a fundamental error in prophecy. He sent out his followers to preach the message and told them to expect persecution. They did not.
    3. After this failure, Jesus tried to force a conclusion by offering up himself as a sacrifice. His prophecy was buillt in the context of his culture and his time.
    4. His prophecies have no currency.

    Assumptions demolished, new foundation.

    1. We have had great thinkers since Christ.
    2. We are released from fear of imminent doom, expectation of persecution, and the division of the world between damned and angels.

    There you go. This is where thinking has got me.

  • cofty
    cofty

    This is where thinking has got me.

    Exactly! Thinking is not a virtue in a religious context, it only complicates things.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    I'll say. I still get a great deal of pleasure from worship. It is like the inexpressible part of me is released.

    I worried for some time about the conflict between where reason was taking me, and where my heart soars. Now I allow both full rein.

  • mindseye
    mindseye

    I worried for some time about the conflict between where reason was taking me, and where my heart soars. Now I allow both full rein.

    That's a good place to be, as I think most of us are both spiritual and rational creatures. I also think there's a place in religious experience where mystery should have it's hold.

    When one tries to make a religion into an almost-scientific enterprise, we get the sort of contrived, overly systematic theology like C.T. Russell was pursuing. Russell wanted everything wrapped up in a little package, with no loose ends. Most of today's fundamentalists are the same way. I think it ends up in a dry, sterile spirituality.

    The reality is, the prophecies in the Bible apply to the people in their own times. Fundamentalists love to take the prophetic words of Jesus and others out of context and apply it to us. But I think the real spiritual meaning comes from how Jesus lead his life and treated those around him - not trying to decipher every word that he said like it was some cosmic algebra problem.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    God, yes, mindseye.

    I think it is no accident that whole fundamentalist movement came out of the industrial revolution and the rise of scientific inquiry. The common man for the first time saw the world as being run by order, reason, standardization, systematization. Compare this to the medieval speculation on where birds go in the winter. The world started to make sense, dashgnabbit. Naturally people turned to the bible and started to demand that it make sense.

    Where did the glory in mystery go?

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    HIs followers faced persecution and still do. Stephen faced persecution for certain. So did Paul. I am unclear as to Paul. James, his brother, was executed, too.

    I researched Christian martyrdom for a college term paper. Persecution was linked to economic downturns. It was mostly episodic. No one was truly safe until Constantine made Christianity the state religion for political reasons rather than religious ones. For a period, martyrdom became more important than baptism for denoting a Christian. One's true birth date in Christ was not baptism but when you died. It became so popular among Christians that people would voluntarily announce it the Romans. Many were not prepared for torture, however, and revealed all the Christians they knew to the Romans so people who never wanted such a commitment were executed. Ignatius can't wait to meet the lions. He begs the church not to rescue him. The Church decided to tighten down on voluntary martyrdoms.

    Of course, when Christianity became dominant in Europe, it persecuted many.

    Christ's intent is never clear. Another research topic was the historical Jesus and the Son of Man tradition.

    For me, the most important issue is the Incarnation. Christology is more important than the Jesus narratives. In the gospels, Christ is never clear about his stature. It doesn't even seem to be an issue. When he speaks of the Son of Man, he refers to a third person. I am convinced personally that the leap from good Jewish boy to God was too great for Jesus to make. We know little about the doctrine of the Jerusalem Church.. Their clinging to Jewish religious forms suggests they viewed themselves as a subset of Judaism, not a new religion. Paul arrives much later.

    The Jerusalem contingent kept kosher which implies that they maintained traditional Jewish notions that God is what is not human. God is completely transcedent. It would be fascinating if we had a record of early Christology debates between the factions.

    Almost everyone reads Jesus in tradition and popular culture into the Gospel accounts. Jung remarked that we project our desires and fears onto Jesus, regardless of the gospel accounts. Frankly, Jesus did not seem to care about it. The apostles don't seem overburdened with the issue, either.

  • cofty
    cofty

    I still get a great deal of pleasure from worship

    I can understand that. I used to find corporate worship exhilarating. Now I can get the same buzz from from sport or music.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Band on the Run, I am referring to is when Jesus' immediate disciples were sent out to preach and to heal. He predicted persecution then (Matthew 10:16-23) while he was still on earth.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I suspect they found it. The gospels reveal that for as many followers of Jesus, just as many detractor existed. His crucixion is persecution. The gospels are not history but a church looking back and deciding to save certain vignettes for history. The early Christians must have known the story through oral tradition or perhaps writings that have not yet been found.

    It does seem as though the apostles survived b/c tradition is so strong concerning where they travelled after Jesus' death.

    Of course, the WT always speculates on what happened when no record exists.

    It does show that a fairly mature church did not find their persecution or lack thereof important enough to mention. You may very well be right. The Jesus quotes are very conveniently placed when the Church undergoes much persecution. Jesus foretold persecution. Oh, to have a neutral contemporary source.

    The King of Kings elicited little commentary outside the Church.

  • Ucantnome
    Ucantnome

    1. We are released from fear of imminent doom, expectation of persecution, and the division of the world between damned and angels.

    i think those who follow Christ will never be angels and i dont think he taught they would be. We are all sinners.

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