Are Flamers & Atheists More Mature Than JW's?

by Englishman 25 Replies latest jw friends

  • Englishman
    Englishman

    Are ex-JW’s, Flamers, Agnostics and Atheists more advanced spiritually and emotionally than fully-active JW’s?

    This is how M.Scott-Peck describes the 4 basic stages of spiritual development. Personally I can relate to stage 3 quite comfortably, but if I talk to a witness – who may be a very devout and religious person – I often feel as though this person is dragging me back into a lower stage, generally stage 2. What do you think?

    STAGE I:Chaotic, antisocial. Frequently pretenders; they pretend they are loving and pious, covering up their lack of principles. Although they may pretend to be loving (and think of themselves that way), their relationships with their fellow human beings are all essentially manipulative and self-serving. They really don't give a hoot about anyone else. I call the stage chaotic because these people are basically unprincipled. Being unprincipled, there is nothing that governs them except their own will. And since the will from moment to moment can go this way or that, there is a lack of integrity to their being. They often end up, therefore in jails or find themselves in another form of social difficulty. Some, however, may be quite disciplined in the services of expediency and their own ambition and so may rise in positions of considerable prestige and power, even to become presidents or influential preachers.

    STAGE II:Formal, institutional, fundamental, beginning the work of submitting themselves to principle-the law. but they do not yet understand the spirit of the law, consequently they are legalistic, parochial, and dogmatic. They are threatened by anyone who thinks differently from them, and so regard it as their responsibility to convert or save the other 90 or 99 percent of humanity who are not "true believers." They are religious for clear cut answers, with the security of a big daddy God and organization, to escape their fear of living in the mystery of life, living in the uncertainty of the unknown.

    STAGE III:Skeptic, individual, questioner, including atheists, agnostics and those scientifically minded who demand a measurable, well researched and logical explanation. A phase of questioning, is analogous to the crucial stage of emptiness in community formation. In reaching for community the members of a group must question themselves. Despite being scientifically minded, in many cases even atheists, they are on a higher spiritual level than Stage II, being a required stage of growth to enter into Stage IV. The churches age old dilemma: how to bring people from Stage II to Stage IV, without allowing them to enter Stage III.

    STAGE IV:Mystic, communal. Out of love and commitment to the whole, using their ability to transcend their backgrounds, culture and limitations with all others, reaching toward the notion of world community and the possibility of either transcending culture or -- depending on which way you want to use the words -- belonging to a planetary culture. They are religious, not looking for clear cut, proto type answers, but desiring to enter into the mystery of uncertainty, living in the unknown. The Christian mystic, as with all other mystics, through contemplation, meditation, reflection and prayer, see the Christ, Gods indwelling Spirit, in all people, including all the Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Jews and so forth, recognizing the connectedness of all humanity with God, never separating himself from others with doctrine -- the words of fallible men who experienced God and attempted to record their experience in human words, words that became compromised the moment they were penned under the limitations of fallible men who wrote them, and we, fallible men and women who read them.

    I feel that the above is quite a good synopsis of the various stages that people experience as they develop emotionally. IMO it goes to prove that ex's - even those who are having mega disagreements with others right now, are actually more loving than everyday JW's. Note how stage 3 people need to experience an "emptiness" in community relationships.

    Englishman.

    Bring on the dancing girls!

  • ladonna
    ladonna

    Englishman,

    This is an excellent post!! Thankyou so much for the in depth information. It explains why sometimes we may feel low after visiting or meeting up with current and staunch JW's, I do anyway

    But, Great post
    Ana

  • gravedancer
    gravedancer

    Englishman,

    I appreciate your posts but take issue with this one. As an atheist who seeks proof I ask you for your basis that the sequence of development you opine has any statistically provable basis.

    Or is it just your opinion?

    Thanks
    GD

  • Englishman
    Englishman

    Gravedancer,

    Good point, just how do you quantify emotional and/or spiritual development?

    OK, this is the way that I see it. I think that you have to experience each stage before you realise that you have been/are in it. For example I recognise the first 3 stages all too well. The selfish "I" stage in which one feels that the world revolves around the self, then all too familiar second stage where structure is sought, and then the next stage where the first and second need to be abandoned.

    All I have here is personal experience which tends to be in line with the above words of M.Scott-Peck, which is why I am seeking the input of others.

    The fourth stage does offer me a tantalising glimpse occasionally when I have had a few beers, unfortunately the imprinting kicks in when the cold light of day arrives as the self demands proof and more proof.

    Englishman.

    Bring on the dancing girls!

  • safe4kids
    safe4kids

    Very interesting post Eman, thanks for making it.

    I, too, recognized the familiar in the first three phases. As for the fourth, I wonder if it's possible to cycle in and then back out again? There have been times when I've felt a deep interconnectedness with my fellow humans, but unfortunately it's not an all the time kinda thing. Perhaps it was just gas, I dunno.

    Grave, I don't take the above as gospel, but it rings true for me as well regarding my own personal experience. And isn't that often what we base our belief systems on? What we can relate to and that resonates as true often because we've lived it? Not very scientific perhaps, but human nature methinks.

    Dana

  • Perry
    Perry

    Excellent post Englishman! Seems like stage IV is the most comfortable.

    I'm leaving for a business trip but will be available saturday morning. I too am looking forward to others responses.

  • gravedancer
    gravedancer

    speaking personally....

    I don't have a spiritual bone in my body (except the one that jumps up and says "BOO" every now and then I guess). Even though i was raised as a JW I have never had any connection my whole life.

    As a youngster I would think all the people praying were just talking to themselves and everytime I had to pray it felt so stupid. I think I always expected more from God than what we had to deliver.

    So as far as me becoming mystic or spiritual - I don't see it happening. If it does I will look up this post and let you know.

  • Englishman
    Englishman

    Gravedancer,

    You do have a spiritual side, you just aren't aware of it. If you had none at all you would not be bothering to communicate via this board.

    Englishman.

    Bring on the dancing girls!

  • safe4kids
    safe4kids

    Grave,

    Spiritual doesn't have to be about god or religion. The most spiritual feeling I get is when I feel strongly connected to others and to the world around me, physical as well as human and emotional.
    I was never much into prayer, altho when I was leaving the JWs, I did pray the most earnestly that I ever had. Receiving no answer pretty much ended my belief in the power of prayer. I also do not have a belief in a supreme being but a very strong belief in the power of love and kindness.

    Dana

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Grave

    It's more about personal evolution. Look inside, not outside. These stages need have nothing to w a god. There is a branch of buddhism that is athiest, yet many of them go through similar stages.

    SS

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit