Are we completely sure Trans people don't just have a mental disorder?

by Lore 49 Replies latest jw friends

  • Lore
    Lore

    The only 'treatment' for gender identity disorder is the person transitioning to living as the gender they feel they are.

    You sure about that? I'll admit I've done very little research on this. But as far as I can tell it's actually a treatable condition.

    Allow me to present this highly unscientific anecdotal example: http://www.psychforums.com/gender-identity-disorder/topic68612.html

    This is a woman who indentified herself as a man. For years. Then after a change to her meds she was taking for Bipolar disorder she stopped identifying as a male and is now both biologically and mentally female.

    You don't think there could be a treatment aside from just going along with it?

  • Lore
    Lore
    I don't see a strong argument against amputating someone's hands, except to the extent that it prevents them from living as a normal human being...

    I think doctors who took an oath to 'do no harm' are under a certain obligation to make sure that they aren't performing damaging surgeries at the request of a person in poor mental health.

    What if you cut off his hands and he's thrilled. Then next year we find a simple pill which removes his mental disorder. Or we remove a deadly brain tumor which caused the initial problem. Then he's healthy again, and realizes that the doctor amputated his hands because of a treatable mental condition.

    I don't think think people with mental disorders should be held accountable for their decisions made while impaired. The doctor in this case should be responsible.

  • JustThatGirl007
    JustThatGirl007

    I have a real problem with people labeling things a "mental disorder" just because they don't understand it. I find it hurtful and cruel. I'm quite sure my genderqueer friends DON'T feel "mentally ill" or anything else.

    As an adult with a neurological condition that people think can just be CURED, a condition people consider a mental disorder, I am a huge advocate and supporter of ACCEPTANCE. Stop labeling us as mentally disordered or ill just because we're different.

    If you don't understand something, STFU and listen to others who are more informed on the issue. You'll learn so much more if you let go of your preconcieved notions and assumptions, SHUT YOUR MOUTH, and LISTEN.

  • Kudra
    Kudra

    ^I think that Lore wants to listen; he started this thread because he is seeking information and input from a wide variety of posters here on this board.

  • lisaBObeesa
    lisaBObeesa
    You sure about that? I'll admit I've done very little research on this.

    ok then.

    This is a woman who indentified herself as a man. For years. Then after a change to her meds she was taking for Bipolar disorder she stopped identifying as a male and is now both biologically and mentally female.

    Um, no, that is not what the post says.

  • JustThatGirl007
    JustThatGirl007

    From Kudra: ^I think that Lore wants to listen; he started this thread because he is seeking information and input from a wide variety of posters here on this board.

    You are probably right. And I realize my response was harsh. But from MY perspective, the perspective of someone who is viewed as mentally damaged or ill, please understand that I responded through my own lens. It doesn't make the WAY I responded kind or right, but the advice is true.

    Lore, I do apologize for the way I responded. It's not my intent to be mean.

    But please seek information from other trans and genderqueer people. Maybe next time, open a subject with less of your own opinion and more of an "I want to know more" approach.

  • Lore
    Lore
    "This is a woman who indentified herself as a man. For years. Then after a change to her meds she was taking for Bipolar disorder she stopped identifying as a male and is now both biologically and mentally female."

    Um, no, that is not what the post says.

    What? Which part did I botch up?

  • brizzzy
    brizzzy

    I have trans and genderqueer friends (one of them is an ex-JW, our mothers go to the same KH) and they're lovely people, and definitely show no signs of "mental illness". They just *know* what they are, the same way you just *know* you are male (and don't necessarily even "feel" male, you just know what you are). It was really painful for them to grow up knowing who they were, and being treated as someone else for so many years, and just as painful is the ignorant accusation of being "mentally ill" or "sick", which they get probably more often than you can imagine.

    Gender/sexuality don't just fit into little black-and-white narrow boxes anymore. The difference between cutting off your hands and undergoing gender reassignment surgery? Well, for one thing, you're not left with a permanent disability. It's mainly cosmetic, to reconcile the physical body with your mental perception of yourself. Lots of people do that with plastic surgery - some subtle, some more over-the-top, but whether the results are to everyone else's taste is beside the point - it should only matter whether the person undergoing the surgery is happy.

    Sure, there are inital side effects (as with any surgery), but they go on to lead normal, productive lives - happier ones than before the surgery, almost always. They still have sexual function, and of course, overall - it just makes them feel happy and right. They're consenting adults, and shouldn't be viewed as though there's "something wrong with them" in need of "fixing" - just like a gay person shouldn't have to be subjected to that "reparative therapy" crap. I'm sure you can find a couple of anomalies, as with everything, like the (yup, anecdotal) one you found on a message board. But for the most part, efforts to "fix" or "change" them are either futile or else do extensive harm.

    It's also worth noting that it's not as simple as going to a doc and being like, "Chop off my penis, doc! Doooooooo it! DO IT NOW!" (By the way, I'm a bit fuzzy on this, but if I understand correctly, I've been told that they don't actually chop it off. They more turn it inside-out or something, to construct a vaginal-type opening that fits the cosmetic goal and also retains sexual sensation). They have to go to incredible lengths not only to prove that this is what they want, but that this is who they ARE. They have to be able to show that they've been living as whatever gender they consider themselves for a significant period of time. They have to undergo a barrage of tests and therapy sessions to make sure they really have Gender Identity Dysphoria. They have to do a ton of pre-surgery counseling to prepare them for what they're signing up for and make sure they understand completely what's involved.

    It's nothing like going to a doctor and asking them to make you an amputee. People with Body Integrity Disorder can usually (though not always) be treated with therapy and medication. Gender Identity Disorder can't, or almost never can. My trans and genderqueer friends are great people and deserve to be treated as such.

    Some genderqueer/trans people feel the need for the reassignment surgery. Others don't. They run the spectrum. It's the same with asexuality. There's a bajillion asexuals out there, and they run the gamut. Some asexuals still desire romantic-yet-celibate relationships with long-term companions. Some date other asexuals, some date non-asexuals. Some are willing to "go along with sex" for their non-asexual partner's sake even if it does nothing for them (to them, sex is sort of like writing out a grocery list or doing their taxes). Others find sex completely repulsive/squicky and want nothing to do with it. Some asexuals who find sex squicky have open relationships with their romantic-celibate partners (they are fine with their partner getting their sexual needs met by other people, as long as they come home to them). Some don't desire a romantic relationship at all. All are equally valid, none of them need "fixing". I'm sorry that you feel being asexual means there might be something "wrong" with you. Embrace your lack-of-sexuality - it's just who you are, and you're in good company :)

    But lay off trans people. They get these hurtful questions all the time and I can't imagine having to live the way they do, having to constantly defend who they are against accusations of being "sick in the head". I get that a lot of it is just borne out of curiosity and a lack of understanding, rather than overt hostility (though they get that too), but it's undeserved and it can cause them a lot of anguish.

  • lisaBObeesa
    lisaBObeesa
    What? Which part did I botch up?

    The part where you said the transgendered person " is now both biologically and mentally female ."

  • DawnBrightmoon
    DawnBrightmoon

    I was initially going to stay out of the topic, but I ultimately have decided to speak up so that you can hear directly from someone who exists on the genderqueer spectrum. A lot of things have already been addressed by others, and I may end up covering some of the ground that they have.

    I am not considering transitioning my body by means of hormones or surgery, but I have no problem whatsoever with those who do those things. There are multiple reasons I have no plans for it, but the most important one is that (for me) it would be a step that would be in complete denial of who I am. I was born biologically male, and while I more often lean toward the female end of the gender spectrum (if you can say that it has ends)... there is a definite male portion as well. Biology determined my sex, but for me to make the decision to transition my body toward female would be me making an outright choice to cut away the physical manifestation of the male half of my mentality. It's choosing sides where I don't feel I should need to do so.

    However, people don't tend to bat an eye about a biological female choosing to have breast implants to make the ones she has larger. People don't really make that big of a deal over various forms of plastic surgery anymore. In probably the majority of these cases, these are not necessary "life-saving" procedures but simply the person trying to alter the body to fit the way they would like to look and to erase the outward manifestation of things they dislike about their biological makeup. Ultimately, it's mostly done for the sake of the mental health of the person, to make him (or her) happier with the way the body looks. Yes, I know there are cases like breast reductions being done in order to take the strain of the excess weight off a woman's back in order to prevent problems related to it, but that hardly represents the entirety of cosmetic surgeries.

    My question, then, is why does the attitude (for a lot of people) change when it's surgery for transgender individuals to allow them to look and live in the way that will make them most happy, especially when there are FAR more mental health and other checks in place in advance of them receiving their surgery to make certain that they know the full implications of what they are choosing to do? The fact that the condition, prior to surgery, is primarily in their heads is somewhat irrelevant. Nearly everything about a people's feelings and beings that truly matter are primarily in their heads. Religion, sexuality, kinks, all the little things that make us feel like we are "weird" (when pretty much everyone has such things), and... yes, gender identity. Just because it exists in your head doesn't mean it isn't real. The brain is a complex thing that we do not fully understand, and it is what we use to perceive and process EVERYTHING.

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