Where does free will end? (page 2)

cofty

Is free will a delusion?

I am moving in that direction.

frankiespeakin

According to some test conducted by Benjamin Libet there may not be such a thing as free will, it just appears to be free will:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Libet

""In the 1970s, Libet was involved in research into neural activity and sensation thresholds . His initial investigations involved determining how much activation at specific sites in the brain was required to trigger artificial somatic sensations, relying on routine psychophysical procedures. This work soon crossed into an investigation into human consciousness; his most famous experiment was meant to demonstrate that the unconscious electrical processes in the brain called Bereitschaftspotential (or readiness potential) discovered by Lüder Deecke and Hans Helmut Kornhuber in 1964 precede conscious decisions to perform volitional , spontaneous acts, implying that unconscious neuronal processes precede and potentially cause volitional acts which are retrospectively felt to be consciously motivated by the subject. The experiment has caused controversy not only because it challenges the belief in free will, but because it relies on questionable methods and rather narrow assumptions regarding how free decisions occur. It has also inspired further study of the neuroscience of free will ."""

Neuroscience of free will:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will

Free Will as Illusion:

It is quite likely that a large range of cognitive operations are necessary to freely press a button. Research at least suggests that our conscious self does not initiate all behavior. Instead, the conscious self is somehow alerted to a given behavior that the rest of the brain and body are already planning and performing. These findings do not forbid conscious experience from playing some moderating role, although it is also possible that some form of unconscious process is what is causing modification in our behavioral response. Unconscious processes may play a larger role in behavior than previously thought.

.....

jgnat

sab - there may be something to the idea of reframing what a religion or a charitable organization is, and the relationship that government has with it. The "public service" that the WTBTS declares on their Canadian tax forms is pathetic (public education).

BOC - Much of how we think and act is a reflection of what our culture/society/parents primes us with. When a child is raised on a fear-based framework, he really has no choice but to act and think on autopilot - when the brain believes it is under threat, it doesn't stop to think, it reacts. When that happens, free will is pretty much out the window. Sadly, I think its more of the rule than the exception. - I'd hate to think so. That means the entire framework of our society would have to be revisited, and that we are more automaton than human. I also resist because I managed to scrabble out of an abusive background. I refuse to believe I am doomed. There are people who rise above their raising, and researchers are checking them out, too. They people who have resilience. It seems that all a child needs is one good model (and it doesn't have to be the parent), and the child can use that to build a different life for themselves.

jgnat

frankiespeakin, I have read somewhere that when we make an unwise choice, we'll work overtime to make up reasons why we did. Mental backflips. I think this may explain why otherwise intelligent people fall for Rutherford's claptrap.

I've also read that the brain makes decisions on consensus. If the majority of neurons vote for a red apple, we believe it is red. It is possible that this preference for consensus decision making explains all sorts of human behavior such as (on the internet) viral videos and swarming.

breakfast of champions

JGNAT - I hate to think so too! But I am also game for the idea that a single model person (other than parents/family members) can have a HUGE effect on a child's life; but again that is a situational factor rather than the child alone exercising some extraordinary pull-myself-up-by-my-bootstraps ability á la free will.

COFTY - I lean more towards free will existing as an illusion, a cognitive trick that smooths out the bumps in our narrative; although, belief in free will can lead to all sorts of delusions. . .

It can get complicated.

jgnat

Here's the thing, BOC. Some children take advantage of the model, others do not. The specific examples I have in mind, the child sought out. The child was miserable and was pretty sure there was something better out there. If child were merely a floating leaf, we would see a more consistent reaction. There's something special about those outlying leaves, bucking the flow, forging a new path.

breakfast of champions

JGNAT - couldn't disagree with you there. Here's where I'm coming from:

My dad's wife's kids became foster parents years ago; ended up adopting a literal 'crack baby' from the inner city and brought her up in a rural/suburban area. I think she has around nine or ten brothers and sisters who were "left behind" with the original mom ( and multiple fathers ). Her brothers and sisters grew up to become arsonists, drug addicts, in and out of prison, pregnant teens - you get the picture.

This girl who was literally plucked from this awful existence just graduated college and is a fine, responsible, gracious and hard-working young woman. A true success story. Yes, she had her issues and problems, but she turned out great.

But let's be honest: take the same girl and place her back in the environment she came from along with her brothers and sisters. Would she be the same person she is today?

So, to some degree free will exists and is active. I say to myself 'raise your arm' and the damn thing goes up! Was that some random occurrence? Hell no! And if I say 'arm go down' the whole damn thing goes down. Remarkable. I will it, and it is so. You won't normally see me with my arms waving up and down just by chance.

But on a larger scale, in the context of society/culture, it's seems our free will isn't so free, at least as we'd like into be.

Have no idea I this makes sense. Just throwing it out there.

cofty

This talk on Free Will by Sam Harris is worth your time.

I found it unsettling because I want to believe I have free will - I also used to want to believe I was created.

...

jgnat

Watching the video....

frankiespeakin

Cofty,

Good vid. I have similar thoughts about the subject.

I would say that free will does not exist for the "ego" or in "ego consciousness" as thoughts do come from the unconscious and surface in ego consciousness where we see, hear, feel or sense them in some form.

Where does free will end?

Share this