WTS cannot take a "kinder, gentler" stand on GLBT

by irondork 17 Replies latest jw friends

  • Quendi
    Quendi

    @ irondork: Here are some answers to the questions you raised in your post.

    Quendi, you have shared your experience with us on the forum and some in private email with me. I'm curious, you said you were well versed and ten steps ahead of the elders on a number of topics. Their final statement on the matter was that you had to accept WTS literature as the final authority on the matter. We all know that the governing body and the literature are held in higher regard, greater authority than the bible, but did they at least TRY to respond to the scriptural points you were making?

    The short answer is they made feeble attempts in the beginning but ultimately gave up. We had several points of contention and one of them was an interpretation of 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 which they used to show the Bible disapproves of homosexuality and that homosexuals could certainly change their orientation through the power of the holy spirit. My answer to that was to point out that drunkards were also listed in the passage. Did this mean that you could place a goblet of wine in front of anybody who had problems with alcohol but had become a Christian and they could drink with no ill effects? The answer obviously was no, so clearly Paul had something else in mind when he penned those words.

    I also told them that the WTS literature on homosexuality was full of downright falsehoods and fairy-tales that had no basis in reality. The "experiences" of gay men who had found both a "cure" for their homosexuality and lasting happiness in straight marriage were the worst to read. Marriage has no effect on a person's sexual orientation, I told the committee. I've known a few married gay men, I added; and when I saw them dispute this I asked if any of them had ever had gay sex and so could prove me wrong. When they said nothnig in answer I replied, "That's what I thought. None of you knows what he is talking about, and the Society doesn't either!"

    Often we argued over the entire judicial committee setup. I pointed to the parables of the fine shepherd, the woman who had lost a drachma coin, and most emphatically the Prodigal Son as the way Jehovah and Jesus felt about those who were "lost" and needed to be found. The judicial committee procedures were the exact reverse of what Christ himself taught. That got me red faces, angry silence and accusations that I was changing the subject.

    Did they at least pretend they were interested in what the bible really teaches or try to present themselves as taking a personal interest in you, your thoughts, your "plague"? Or was it mostly mechanical, cut and dry, swallow it or else?

    It was clearly take it or leave it. I told them they always mentioned the Bible and WTS publications in the same breath so clearly they were equating the two. But doing so flew right in the face of Christ's teachings. I said the role of the 'faithful slave' was to feed and not lead since the leadership position among Christians was Christ's alone and not some man or group of men. When we first began the hearings, the elders acted like they were personally interested in me, but as time went on they dropped that pretense and only expressed personal animosity. Their interest in my "plague" often bordered on the prurient and occasionally even crossed that line.

    As for the relevancy of WTS literature, I asked was it possible for a person to have had only one contact with Witnesses, accept the literature and then because of geographical isolation still worship Jehovah in an acceptable manner. They answered yes. Then why should anyone be required to possess and read up-to-date literature if that is the case? They said I had made a good point they could not answer but since 'the slave' said its publications were absolutely essential for a Christian to read, that was the final word on the matter.

    The pattern of our discussions was they would cite WTS literature or isolated scriptural texts. I countered with real life experience and scriptures read in their proper context. That impressed one of the elders who muttered, "It's obvious that you haven't lost your thinking ability to use the Bible to make your points. You've given us a few things to think about." But in the end it made no difference. Seeing that I could always find flaws in their arguments, they finally told me the only way I would be reinstated was to accept the WTS as 'God's exclusive channel.' I didn't argue with them when they said that. I merely thanked them for their time and left. I have never been back to a kingdom hall since.

    Quendi

  • Cacky
    Cacky

    I no longer matters to me if they do become kinder and gentler. They've already done too much damage to ever make up for it, as far as I'm concerned.

  • I quit!
    I quit!
    but homosexuals can be held to the same standard as heterosexual single persons: they can choose not to act upon their urges.

    So what are they saying? That single homsexuals shouldn't have sex till they are married? So will they marry them? More pointless double talk.

  • Dogpatch
    Dogpatch

    irondork says,

    LET IT BE KNOWN that this is a load of crap! Even if that statememnt were written on page one of every piece of WTS literature from now until the end of the overlapping generations, it would still be a load of crap. The truth of the situation that actually exists on the ground, in the halls, by elders and drones alike is a complete and utter disdain and disrespect for any GLBT person who is "out" and open about it. In-house shunning, jokes, laughter... don't be fooled by the statement above. It's like the U.S. Congress passing a Bill of Rights and then saying, "There! Problem Solved."

    Again, we see the nature of the Unholy Trinity:

    http://www.freeminds.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3200:how-the-watchtowers-unholy-trinity-speaks&catid=16:ethics&Itemid=702

  • designs
    designs

    Christians of all denominations are having to come to grips with the flaws in their sacred scriptures. The Liberal and progressive groups are making the adjustments while the Fundamentalists and JWs are a century behind the times.

  • irondork
    irondork

    Cacky: I no longer matters to me if they do become kinder and gentler. They've already done too much damage to ever make up for it, as far as I'm concerned.

    Ditto!

    You know, for a few moments after I read the "kinder, gentler" line written by Socrateswannebe, my cult programming kicked in and I considered the possibility of returning if it wasn't so toxic as when I left. I began remembering all the parts that I liked about going there.

    Etch a sketch!!!

    Then I made myself remember everything I have learned since leaving there. But most important... they did WAY too much damage over the course of my entire life, most without me even knowing it. But now that I am fully aware.... OH, HELL NO!!!

  • irondork
    irondork

    Quendi: I'd welcome any suggestions about how to do this and want to thank you in advance for them.

    As with any effort to get anyone else out of the WT trap, it is entirely up to the individual how he or she will respond to information. Perhaps in the case of your friend, information along with the fact that he is miserable may some day push him. Be patient with him and never give up.

    I wish you both the best.

  • Quendi
    Quendi

    @ Dogpatch: Randy, thanks for the link to the "Unholy Trinity" piece on the freeminds.org website. I was fascinated by what you wrote there and reading it made me all the happier that I am no longer remotely affiliated with this religion/cult. I hope that we are indeed witnessing the "last days" of the WTS.

    @ cacky: You are absolutely right to say that this religion has done too much harm to ever consider embracing it again for any reason. To do so would indeed be returning to one's own vomit or rolling once more in the mire.

    @ irondork: I don't have much hope that my friend will ever leave the WTS. It's not as though he doesn't have many non-Witness friends to associate with if he did leave because he does and they have stuck with him during his nearly 30 association with the WTS. I think that, as was the case with so many of us former Witnesses, he sincerely believes these are the last days and survival into a new world depends on being a loyal foot soldier. If there are problems in the organization, Jehovah will correct them in due time so he must neither "run ahead" nor "lag behind" lest he be eternally damned. Still, I'll be patient and pass on information and developments like this Conti case in the hope that he'll act on them.

    Quendi

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