Creation, evolution, the flood and science - Is the Bible without error?

by Andrew Sh 48 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  cofty

  Ok Andrew you are talking rubbish about only needing to point out one error to bring the whole science of evolutionary biology crashing down but I will play along for a while.

  There is actually one simple thing you could do to bring evolution down - go and find a rabbit fossil in pre-Cambrian rock. That's it! Creationists should all be out with their geological hammers breaking rock night and day. Actually we have countless thousands of fossils that have been uncovered since Darwin's day and not one of them fails to fit perfectly into the pattern of gradual evolution over millions of years. Not one is out of place. How do you explain that Andrew?

  We also have an embarassment of riches of transitional fossils (missing links in creationists speak) just as Darwin predicted we would.

  So back to your main point. I know theology in considerable detail, I understand the christian gospel as well as anybody I have ever read or listened to. I used to preach it publicly in church with passion and clarity.

  I also understand all the shades of creationism. Young earth, old earth, gap theory, day-age theory, theistic evolution, intelligent design, speicified complexity, irreducible complexity etc etc etc. I am familiar with the works of Ken Ham and Kent Hovind and Duane Gish and Michael Behe and Bill Dembsky et al.

  I am by no means alone in being able to make these claims, lots of us on this forum have been through a similar journey.

  So before we discuss anything specific with you perhaps you could at last answer a simple question so we know what you know already. We wouldn't discuss calculus with somebody who hasn't yet grasped arithmetic.

  What pro-evolution books written by evolutionary scientists have you studied already?

  Thanks
• 

  Andrew Sh

  So, you Atheists and agnostics, you think you have burst the bubble of Bible Infallibility at the point of Genesis 1-6, and its account of creation. I am just going to return the method, to return the compliment as it were, and seek to burst the bubble of evolutionary theory by seeking to attack at what looks like a very weak point, maybe its weakest point. I know I will not burst it to the satisfaction of the committed atheist or agnostic. I only seek to bring an unbiased bystander, if there is such a person, to see that there are two sides to this, not just the one he is so often presented with. I just want to show that belief in evolutionary theory is a preference rather than anything else; that the evolutionist believes it simply because he prefers to believe it, not because the scientific evidence unmistakeably points to it.

  Many people the vast majority of people I would say who say they believe it, have almost no clear concept of what it is they believe. For many its just a convenient theory to enable them to forget about God, the Bible, and the Day of Judgment.

  Others have some idea, but do not have a defence for every field of science that is needed to know it can be defended everywhere (such as paleontology, genetics, micro biology, geology, etc); they have not investigated to such an extent to be able to say that it stands up under scrutiny in every area. I don't entirely blame them, we have to take some things on trust: but, surely, we have to have an idea of who can be trusted, especially in areas that really matter; and what can be more important than knowing who to trust when it comes to matters of life and death, eternal life or eternal ruin? Our Lord warned us to "Beware of false prophets that come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs from thistles?" (Matthew 7:15,16)

  There might be a few people who have looked high and low for possible holes in the theory and have found some way to shore up the defences, to stuff the holes with something or other, but how many people in the world are there in this category? And how many of these experts are really prepared to break ranks and admit they have serious doubts about the whole theory? All their life is tied up with the "truth" of evolutionary theory; their livelihoods, their books, their University positions, their friendships,etc. Is it not a bit like being a JW and having to leave.... horrible decision!
• 

  Black Sheep

  LOL

  You can bash evolution as much as you like, but even if you could prove life required a creator god, that wouldn't prove the existance of any particular religion's version of creator god, including the OT's baby murdering perveyor of hate and intolerance.
• 

  cofty

  Others have some idea, but do not have a defence for every field of science that is needed to know it can be defended everywhere (such as paleontology, genetics, micro biology, geology, etc); they have not investigated to such an extent to be able to say that it stands up under scrutiny in every area.

  I have, so have plenty more on this forum.

  So first be polite enough to answer my question and then lets have your best shot against evolution.

  What pro-evolution books written by evolutionary scientists have you studied already?
• 

  cofty

  I'm making two predictions.

  1. The honest answer is "none"

  2. Andrew won't answer the question
• 

  THE GLADIATOR

  Andrew Sh "I just want to show that belief in evolutionary theory is a preference rather than anything else; that the evolutionist believes it simply because he prefers to believe it, not because the scientific evidence unmistakeably points to it."

  We are still waiting!

  By the way, you have utterly failed to address Cofty's excellent post 5th above this one. Quoting from the Bible won't cut it.
• 

  NewChapter

  Andrew has not argued even on valid point. His posts are just preaching hidden behind a nonexistent discussion of evolution. He keeps referring to holes and weaknesses, but has yet to be specific. He is like listening to a politician---lot's of words, no substance.

  Name a weak point Andrew. Tell us your understanding of that point and how it 'debunks' (the scientific term would be falisify) the entire theory of evolution.

  In other words---get to the pont or bow out of the conversation. You're just preaching, and that is BORING.

  The Atheists are coming, The Atheists are coming!

  NC
• 

  simon17

  Andrew your post is so amazing that I actually considered the possibility that you were just posting perfect satire. But, actually I think you are serious with your points.

  Also, to be able to measure the truthfulness or otherwise of evolutionary theory you ideally need to have no invested interest in the outcome of your analysis. You should ideally not have your livelihood built on a preference for one of the answers.

  You are perfectly describing the bias you, as a believer in the Bible, have in this argument. How would my life change if evolution were true or not? I would still die when I'm 70 and that would be the end. It is irrelevant to how I live, what choices I make, or how I act. The religious believer however, has their entire life, and their entire afterlife, completely wrapped up and dependent on their worship and devotion to God. You're life is entirely built on Christianity and you have more of a vested interest than any person could possibly have!

  I suppose I could argue that in order to be able to assess the scientific evidence of evolutionary theory you also must be a Christian who has submitted his life to God and believes the Bible in all other respects. Why? Because a Christian is the only one whose life need not change depending on the outcome of his investigations: he could change his view on Genesis 1-6 from a literalist interpretation to a figurative interpretation depending on his decision about evolutionary theory.

  See you've just perfectly described the impossibilty of your challenge of "finding one error in the Bible." If Science finds something wrong with a theory, you are absolutely right: they must throw it out. Evidence rules science and they must adhere to evidence above all other things. That is why it works so wonderfully. But religion is not like that. It can't be proved wrong. As soon as a non-believer shows evidence of error, the believer simply shape-shifts the words into another meaning entirely.

  So lets not debate whether the Bible is inerrant or not. That is an impossible task. Here's a better statement which we can lock down: "The Bible is, and always will be, inerrant TO YOU"
• 

  Phizzy

  As usual, the believer thinks we are like him, he thinks we "believe" Evolutionary Theory.

  We do not "believe" it,i.e hold that it is true without evidence, we see that as a Scientific Theory,( perhaps you had better look up what aScientific Theory is Andrew,) it fits ALL the facts, as Cofty touched on above.

  As a Theory it may well be lacking or wrong in some details, new facts will show this and the Theory will itself "evolve" along with the facts.

  For the Theory to totally fail , some new astounding findings would have to come about that show that all the data gathered thus far is wrongly interpreted.

  150 years, and that hasn't happened yet. If it did, it would astound us non-believers, but you would be no nearer getting us to believe in something.

  We want solid, peer reviewed scientific evidence that would convince an impartial Court. Have we got that for Evolutionary Theory ? we surely have as Clarence Darrow would testify if he was still with us, have you got any for a Creator ? ..??....?????.....?????????..... still waiting.
• 

  dark angle

  Dark Angel - Thanks, but you would have saved yourself some trouble writing if you had just said you

  1 - don't believe the Bible is inspired by God, and

  2 - do believe life could have materialised from non-life by itself.

  Andrew,

  You seem to be so centered in the word "beleive/belief". It looks like your so inclined to see others and yourself on the basis on beliefs.

  Look man, if you really want to see the world objectively you must take away your veil of beliefs. Just forget for a while God/s, angles, and demons. Focus on the natural world (most probabbly you will not see anyone of them).

  Atheists, Agnostics, Scientist are endevouring to look on bare data and try to figure and the pattern they are pointing. Absolute certainty and beliefs are null and errilevant. what matters is the evidence and the direction they might lead. In fact, Scientific theories are probationary in nature and are not viewed as abolute truths as religions have. Yet they are considered as the most precise description of reality currently and has by far produce the wonders of our technological world. Evolutionary theory infact has many applications, it is a practical science and has produce results in designing antibiotics, Artifical Selection, Medicine, Computer Science, and bio molecular technologies. Creationism and Intelleligent Design however did not have any useful and practical applications in the real world.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applications_of_evolution

  if your mind was so condition to beleive on absolute certainty as a result of religious upbringing you may find it difficult how to see the reality of our world objectively as many posters here have.

  So try to set asside your hardcoded beliefs first, and listen with an open mind. then after pondering for many months or years on this issue of yours, weighing both sides, come back here and post what you have find.