The "TRVTH" may not set you Free

by Amazing 22 Replies latest jw friends

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Guest77:

    How about respect Amazing?

    Sure, respect helps.

    "What may be truth to one may not be truth to another."
    Relativism is fine to a degree. Certainly, many aspects of our life, circumatances, experiences, etc. play a role in what we see as 'truth.'

    I do believe that there are some absolute truths ... but these tend to be facts, more than some all-important TRVTH. The fact that we exist is an absolute truth. There is either a "God" who is responsible for our existence or not ... there is no middle ground on that issue ... but, knowing that 'truth' for sure is another matter.

    If a pedestrian is hit with by car driven by someone, then the driver cannot stand in a courtroom and tell the Judge that what is true for the Court is not true for the driver ... The driver either hit the pedestrian or did not ... the driver must plead innocent or guilty, and cannot plead relativism.

    Other than these hard-reality issues, I tend to lean back toward acceptance of most relativism ... or for me, I am in a generalize state of agnosticism, though I believe that God (whomever She/He/It is) did bring about our existence.

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Amazing,

    You wrote: Agnostics are the truly honest ones: ... they simply refuse to demand that one side or the other is "TRVTH" until some hard evidence emerges that allows them to take the next step to ultimate 'truth.'

    I was an agnostic for quite a few years after leaving the JWs. Now I believe Jesus is "the truth." (John 14:6) I came to believe this only after what I consider to be "hard evidence" convinced me of it. Some people who now call themselves "atheists" were also once agnostics, until they became absolutely convinced, by what they consider to be "hard evidence," that there is no God.

    Do you consider people like us to be honest? Or do you believe that, since the existence of an invisible God can never be absolutely proven or disproven, all who firmly believe or disbelieve in his existence are being dishonest?

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Yadirf,

    I think you should lay off Amazing. The fact that many exJWs become agnostics is largely the fault of the Watchtower Society. For it thoroughly convinces JWs that all religious beliefs, other than those it teaches, are wrong. Then when many JWs, for various reasons you are well aware of, lose their faith in the Watchtower Society, they have a hard time embracing any other religious belief system. For the Watchtower Society thoroughly convinced them that all other religious belief systems are wrong. Thus, thanks to the Watchtower Society, agnosticism and atheism are the only viable religious belief systems that remain for many exJWs.

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi aChristian: You said,

    "I was an agnostic for quite a few years after leaving the JWs. Now I believe Jesus is "the truth." (John 14:6) I came to believe this only after what I consider to be "hard evidence" convinced me of it. Some people who now call themselves "atheists" were also once agnostics, until they became absolutely convinced, by what they consider to be "hard evidence," that there is no God."

    What is the 'hard evidence' that convinced you that Jesus is the truth?

    "Do you consider people like us to be honest? Or do you believe that, since the existence of an invisible God can never be absolutely proven or disproven, all who firmly believe or disbelieve in his existence are being dishonest?"
    I think that people who profess 'belief' in something as 'truth' may be very sincere, and to that extent they are being as honest as they can be. But, their sincerety does not mean that they have the 'truth' ... it could be, but it might not be. The kind of honesty I speak of is admitting that we do not have proof, and could be in error, and therefore, our beliefs are merely that, beliefs; subject to revision, adjustment, or total abandonment. My main point is directed to those who say that they have THE TRVTH ... absolute TRVTH ... The whole TRVTH and nothing by the TRVTH, so help them Gawd! ... and they believe that everyone else is wrong.

    You noted to Yadirf:

    "The fact that many exJWs become agnostics is largely the fault of the Watchtower Society. For it thoroughly convinces JWs that all religious beliefs, other than those it teaches, are wrong. Then when many JWs, for various reasons you are well aware of, lose their faith in the Watchtower Society, they have a hard time embracing any other religious belief system."
    Good point. Any person who leaves an abusive, high-control group like the JWs may well end up agnostic.

    Cont'd,

    "For the Watchtower Society thoroughly convinced them that all other religious belief systems are wrong. Thus, thanks to the Watchtower Society, agnosticism and atheism are the only viable religious belief systems that remain for many exJWs."
    I was raised Roman Catholic. I became a JW as a young adult. When I left the JWs 25 years later, I turned to Christianity, and associated with a Baptist group for a while ... until they hired a jerk for a pastor ... then I left. I still believe in God, and Jesus Christ to me is the embodiment of spiritual truth as the Son of God. Since I cannot prove it ... it is purely a matter of belief ... and as such, honesty demands that I must admit that I could be wrong and I don't know for a certainty ... and therefore, I am somewhat of a Christian-Agnostic.
  • Will Power
    Will Power

    Amazing
    Very honestly said.

  • AMarie
    AMarie

    Yadifr said:

    " Amazing DOESN'T REALLY KNOW WHO GOD IS ... yes, doesn't know whether God is a She, He, or an It"

    Well, Friday, seeing how you have met god, talked to him face to face, shook hands and all I suppose you do.[8>] Big fucking deal, Amazing didn't give god a specific gender (Gasp). I think it shows humility on his part that he doesn't claim to know everything, unlike some people.

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Amazing,

    You wrote: I still believe in God, and Jesus Christ to me is the embodiment of spiritual truth as the Son of God. Since I cannot prove it ... it is purely a matter of belief ... and as such, honesty demands that I must admit that I could be wrong and I don't know for a certainty ... and therefore, I am somewhat of a Christian-Agnostic.

    I respect such honesty. There are certainly many Christians whose beliefs have not been founded on any tangible evidence of their accuracy. They have formed the opinions they now hold without even thoroughly studying the Bible. Neither have they studied secular history, anthropology, archeology, paleontology, geology, biology, astronomy or physics to determine if the information recorded in the Bible agrees with many well proven historical and scientific realities. Yet they say they are sure that what they believe is true. Such people usually say that God has spoken to their hearts and, by so doing, convinced them that the story of scripture is indeed "the truth." The Bible tells us that the apostle Paul became a believer in Christ due to his own personal experience, an experience which others around him did not fully share, and thus an experience he could not prove to others actually occurred. With this in mind, how can we deny others the right to say that they "know" their beliefs are correct due to their own personal feelings or experience? I don't believe we can. However, as we know, such personal experiences usually do not convince those who have not experienced them of anything.

    You wrote: What is the 'hard evidence' that convinced you that Jesus is the truth?

    You and I have discussed this matter before. Very shortly after losing my faith in the JW organization I began doubting the inspiration of the Bible and even the existence of God. During a difficult time in my life I decided to give God, if He existed, another chance. I began studying the Bible on my own for the purpose of determining for myself if it really was the inspired word of God. During this time I also studied the teachings and "Holy" writings of most other major world religions. After doing so, I found that I really wanted to believe the Bible was God's word, because out of everything I had read only the teachings and person of Jesus Christ seemed truly "Divine." But though I was greatly drawn to Christ from what I read in the Bible, I knew I could not accept him as my "Lord " if I was not sure that the Bible itself was inspired by God. For if it was not, how could I be sure that what it said about Jesus Christ was true? I continued to study the Bible and to read many books on history and science. I also began to pray. But instead of my Bible reading causing my confidence in it to grow, much of what I read in the Bible caused me to begin to doubt it was inspired by God.

    One big problem I was having was with what appeared to me to be the Bible writers' superstitious and, I thought, almost certainly nonhistorical use of a few favorite numbers. Especially the number "40." The Bible told me that rain fell from the sky for "40 days and 40 nights" causing the flood of Noah's day. Moses was on Mount Sinai communicating with God on two separate occasions, each time for "40 days and 40 nights." Afterwards the Israelites wandered in the wilderness for "40 years." Abraham's descendants were "enslaved and oppressed" for "400 years," 10 times 40. The first three kings of Israel, Saul, David and Solomon, each ruled for "40 years." Jonah was ordered by God to prophesy that the city of Nineveh would be overthrown in "forty more days." Before beginning His ministry Jesus fasted for "40 days and 40 nights." And so forth.

    I thought to myself, "Certainly all these things did not really happen in increments of 40, as the Bible says they did. The Bible writers must just have had some superstitious attachment to that number and adjusted the facts of history to incorporate it into their accounts." The problem I had with that was, if the Bible writers tampered with the facts of history to incorporate some of their superstitions into their accounts of it, I had to also believe that they may have tampered with the facts of history to incorporate other "superstitious" beliefs into their "historical" accounts. With this in mind, how could I believe Jesus was really born of a virgin? And how could I believe Jesus was really raised from the dead? As much as I had wanted to believe in the Bible because it contained the very appealing story of Jesus Christ, I began to conclude that I could not honestly do so. I again turned to God in prayer. This time, as Stephen had done when he was being stoned to death, I prayed to Jesus. I told him that the only way I could truly believe in him was if I also believed that all those 40s in the Bible were also all true. And the only way I could believe that they were, was to understand that God Himself had arranged historical events in increments of 40 for some purpose. I asked Jesus, if he heard my prayer, to please help me understand these things. I told him that if he did not soon do so I would almost certainly lose all of the faith I had left in him.

    I prayed that prayer in the first week of July, 1991. The very next day I took a magazine out of my mailbox, Newsweek I believe it was. I began reading an article on a total eclipse of the sun that was due to occur over Hawaii on July 11 of that year. What I read absolutely stunned me. I fell down on my knees and gave my life to Christ right then and there. I have been a Christian ever since.

    God did not answer all of my questions right then. But what He then showed me convinced me beyond all doubt that the entire story of scripture is true. I also then became quite confident that the rest of my questions would soon be answered.

    What did I learn in July of 1991 which caused me to believe beyond all doubt that the God of the Bible created our universe, and that He also deliberately caused various events recorded in scripture to happen in increments of 40, even though I did not yet then understand why He did so? I learned that the sun's diameter is exactly 400 X the size of the moon's diameter, 864,000 miles vs. 2,160 mi. (or "1,400,000 km." vs. "3500 km." according to NASA's Geometry of the Solar System @ http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/SEhelp/SEgeometry.html ) I learned that the sun's distance from the earth is also always about 400 X greater than the moon's distance from the earth. I learned that because the moon's diameter is 1/400 the size of the sun's diameter and because the moon is 1/400 as far away from the earth as the earth is from the sun, the moon is precisely the correct size to cover the face of the sun as seen from the earth. I learned that it is because of this relationship, which the earth, sun and moon have with the # 400, that we are able to observe what has been called "the greatest spectacle in nature," a total eclipse of the sun. I learned that, "The average time between total eclipse paths crossing one location (being able to observe a total eclipse of the sun from any one spot on earth) is about 400 years." (See The Sun - Our Star, Robert W. Noyes, 1982, page 145) And I learned that, "The Sun is 400 thousand times as bright as the full moon." (1998 edition of The World Almanac, page 290)

    When I read those things in 1991 I knew that it could not be just a coincidence that the same number "400," which is so much a part of the design of the sun and the moon, also fills the Bible's historical accounts, most often in the abbreviated form "40." I knew then that the same God who designed our universe must have also designed the historical events recorded in the Bible. For only He could have incorporated the same numbers so prominently into both of works. Though I didn't then yet understand why God did these things, I knew that He did. My studies since that time have shown me why He did them. But that's another long story.

    I think that the geometry of the solar system, only a part of which I have here discussed, should be enough to cause any honest hearted agnostic or Bible doubter to rethink their previous conclusions. Especially considering the fact that Jesus said, "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars." (Luke 21:25)

    I have in the last ten years done much study of ancient history, anthropology, archeology, paleontology, geology, biology, astronomy and physics. After doing so I have become even more convinced that the Bible is the inspired word of God, though it is certainly often misunderstood in many ways.

    I realize that what constitutes sufficient "proof" for the existence of the God of the Bible for me may not do so for you. The 'hard evidence' I have here discussed is not so hard that it will convince everyone that the God of the Bible created our universe. Nothing is provable to everyone. Some people even still insist that the earth is flat. And nothing anyone says to these people can prove to them otherwise. Does that mean that it is not "provable" that the earth is a sphere? No, it only means that some people are unwilling to believe some things no matter what kind of "proof" of it is presented to them. I believe plenty of evidence now exists that the God of the Bible created our universe, for those who are willing to accept it. I also believe that not enough evidence of this will ever exist for those who are not willing to accept it.

  • KJV
    KJV

    When Jesus was arrested Pilate asked him:"What is truth?"(John18:38). Jesus never answered him! And I always wondered why. Maybe Jesus didn't have the answer!

  • waiting
    waiting

    Hey Amazing,

    Agnostics are the truly honest ones: These honestly admit they don't know. They do not have to promote or debate creed.
    Thank you for starting this good thread - and I agree. I'm quite proud of my accomplishment of being comfortable with both sides - seeing some validity or reasoning.....but refuse to be definitive on an issue that I don't feel can be honestly definitive.

    I just don't know. What's been said about the WTBTS is correct to a point. My daughter is being baptized as a Methodist shortly, and my nephew going to the Unitarian church. They are both 31, both df'd, both married - and I think they're looking for something which they don't have. Roots? Peace?

    She asked me to come & share in her baptism. I politely declined - just cannot accept it - but wished her all well & happiness. Rather like trying to go to another person's wedding after you've just gone through a bitter divorce. Just ain't gonna happen.

    We're all different, and should allow freedom to others.

    waiting

    ps: I did encourage her to find out if she could leave the methodists with no repercussions - and get it in writing. Her response, "Oh, mommmmmmmmmmmm." I don't think they're like jw's. I'm pretty certain Unitarians are so free, it just doesn't matter.

  • seedy3
    seedy3

    Hey Amazing nice thread.

    I just wanted to point out to the few here really objecting to the ideals that Amazing has put forth.

    Firstly, Amazing has not said youare wrong, he said either side could be wrong.

    Secondly, What you believe is not based on any "Factual" evidence, it strictly based on "Faith" and faith alone. Now faith is a feeling, almost an emotion. Facts are not emotion, they are evidence visable by all. Such as, a mountain, it is not that I have faith that it is there, we all can see it, we can climb it touch it. That is a fact. The belief in a "god" is not a fact it is a faith.

    Now don't get me wrong, if you want to follow your faith...... hey more power to ya, but I chose to not base what I feel soley on faith, that is why I take the course of an Agnostic, becasue I don't know, I see no solid proof. Sure you can say the old creationist thing like "how can you believe that an almighty designer had nothing to do with this wonderful creation?" Well again, where is the eveidence that it did not come around by chance (evoloution) much of the evidence says it did. But then again, what's to say that "God" did not design Evoloution? Who knows? Perhaps you people know becasue your faith says so.
    Seedy

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