by Sour Grapes 29 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
If you knew that a murder would take place and did
nothing to stop it would you share some responsibility?
If you knew that your neighbor was going to be robbed
and did nothing about it would you have any responsibility?
God has the ablity to stop all murders and all crime.
If He does nothing to stop it does He have any responsibity?
Sour Grapes
Sounds to me like God would be bloodguilty.
I think the standard theist counterargument is that God sees the "greater good" - he has a "master plan" and for the sake of accomplishing his far grander purpose, he allows what appear to be injustices to our imperfect eyes. We don't see the "big picture", so it only seems that God is bloodguilty.
On the surface it's a reasonable argument.
But for me, anyway, it's pretty hard to fathom what "greater good" is accomplished by letting hundreds of millions slowly starve, suffering miserable agony before finally dying, or allowing genocide, or allowing the indiscriminate death of thousands in an earthquake, flood, tsunami, etc.
On the surface the argument might seem strong, but allowing the train of logic presented run further would create a paradox.
What would be necessary to prevent all murders and crime? Would it not involve stopping the humans who were performing them?
Recall the 2002 film Minority Report about a police force that apprehends criminals based on a foreknowledge of events. Something of that sort would have to go on, either by divine means or via humans or perhaps something we have no knowledge of at present, correct?
When you stop a crime based on foreknowledge what do you do with the person who was going to commit it? Do you charge them? Do you jail them? If the person was going to commit murder, do you execute them? That means we would live in a state where people get charged, jailed, and likely executed for crimes they never commit. Is that what you are proposing? Where's the justice in that?
What if I stopped you from being able to reply to my post here? Let's say that I had foreknowledge of what you were about to write, and I did not approve of it, and that I also had the power to stop you from doing anything I didn't want you to do. Would you say you had real freedom? Are you saying you would only believe in God if this was the paradigm, if God dealt with you and others like that?
If you choose to not believe in God, did that happen because God doesn't want you to believe or because you have the freedom to not believe in God? If God is all-powerful, why doesn't he just prevent all people from not believing in him? Why doesn't God force us to believe?
And if granting freedom makes God bloodguilty of the crimes God does not commit, what does it put the humans who commit the murder? Does that automatically free them from being responsible? What if there is no God? Are we as a society to allow criminals to run free because there is no God to stop them or to prove that God doesn't exist by allowing them to run rampant and thus have something to point at to say: "Ah-hah! See? The is no God!"?
It's a paradox. There's no front without a back. Light only exists because there is darkness to compare it to. There is freedom and there is the lack of freedom. There is good and there is evil. Even without a God, who is responsible for the crimes and murders? Who would non-theists blame?
If you do not believe in a God, then you cannot say you do not believe in God because he is bloodguilty for crimes of humanity. Where God doesn't exist there is no blame to place on someone that isn't there.
One last point to consider: You know there will be injustices committed today and tomorrow and beyond. How can you prove to those who charge you that you have done everything in your power to prevent these evils or that you were without power to prevent this or that injustice? Are you so sure? Can we prove that an action we do or fail to do does not result in an injustice, a crime, or even in a murder tomorrow and that we are thus not bloodguilty? Are any of us truly powerless to prevent the evils of society today or completely innocent of any contribution to such things by our actions or inactions?
OGD: If you choose to not believe in God, did that happen because God doesn't want you to believe or because you have the freedom to not believe in God?
I love the Watchtower-esque use of the phrase "choose to not believe in God." I don't choose to NOT believe in God anymore than you choose to NOT believe in the tooth fairy. I've yet to see reason and evidence to support the existence of any traditional concepts of a deity.
If you do not believe in a God, then you cannot say you do not believe in God because he is bloodguilty for crimes of humanity. Where God doesn't exist there is no blame to place on someone that isn't there.
I think you miss the implied "therefore..." when non-theists attribute atrocities to God. A deity that is the epitome of love but allows innocent children to suffer and die? The very idea is self-refuting. It surprises us that theists need the punchline explained, the implication spelled out.
God's done nothing to stop murders in the Bible, if you believe that. In fact,
he orders quite a number of hits himself where he takes out scores of innocent
people and then proceeds to tell humans that murder is wrong. But, I guess,
after all he IS God and he can jolly well do what he pleases.
@diana: 2.4 million confirmed kills either by God or directed by God. This number doesn't include the flood or sodom and gamorrah.
Here is a detailed breakdown of the evils that gods do:
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html
Depending on what day of the week, I might answer this differently, but as it stands now on this dreary Wednesday afternoon.......I'd say if God exists, He dignifies us to some degree by not holding our hand every step of the way similar to that of an experienced parent's relationship with adult offspring. The parent can reason with their adult son or daughter on certain matters, but only so much. Due to experience and wisdom the parent can often tell which direction their offspring's life is headed based upon their speech and actions. Yet, ultimately whatever the son/daughter chooses to do, or chooses to say, or chooses to think, will be up to that sole individual and not their parent. It's the reason I believe the story of Cain & Abel is in the Scriptures as it's a lesson involving pride, humility, and wisdom. God gave Cain a heads up that his heart was crooked and if he didn't check himself, he was likely going to do something regrettable. Could God have simply eliminated Cain and prevented Abel's untimely demise? Sure, but who's to say Cain wouldn't have reasoned that maybe God's right, and then maybe take steps to adjust his outlook?
The same can be said about Jonah's views toward the Ninevites, or Jacob's views towards Esau years after their birthright conflict? Those examples are minor when compared to the complexity of the problems mankind is dealing with now, however, that doesn't really give humans the excuse to play the blame game with God.
If god exsists and I don't see any evidence that he does.......... but if he could stop the dehumanizing crimes and lets throw in human suffering that takes place and doesn't do so.......then he is guilty as charged. And if he doesn't have the power to do anything about human suffering then he's not the god that I would want to worship.....he would be just another parasite.
Free will doesn't enter into this............... we have plenty of free will without having to act on our inclination to murder or harm. We have laws in this country that seek to protect people and/or punish in our time frame the one who harmed another.
This of course is one of the real reasons one stops believing.
