by Knowsnothing 27 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
What's up with that is that it is not about universal sovereignty.
If it were, then He would have left the Israelites to Pharoah. Instead God intervened on behalf of those who belong to Him.
Peace,
tammy
In your opinion then, what is the reason Adam and Eve were allowed to live, if not for Universal Sovereignty?
Um... mercy, love. God is a god of life and mercy and love; not a god of death.
You might ask then why Adam and Eve could not remain in the garden and live forever? You cannot unsee what is seen, or unknow what is known. They ate from the tree of knowledge of good and bad. They chose to KNOW and did know (e x perienced) good AND bad. Life and death, and all the good and bad that we also know that goes with that knowing. You cannot know something, and yet not know it at the same time. It was not the tree of good OR bad. It was the tree of good AND bad.
Peace,
tammy
We don't know for sure exactly what they were planing to do. When groups of people have the same ideas, desires, plans, they can carry them out easier. Twitter can do that, as an example. So by saying "nothing they plan" could just mean "their ideal" of a plan. Maybe it was mass slaughter of others, but it wasn't good and He knew it. When we see something will go terribly wrong with our kids actions we intervene. We don't need to read hearts at that moment. As for governments, how much time do they really need to show what they are about. I think we all want fairness because we are very caring individuals on this site. It just doesn't seem to exist for everybody, someone is always suffering because governments are showing favoritism. We all hate that about JW's. God is only guiding things along for the safety of humankind otherwise we will wipe ourselves off the planet. Free will, well that's why we we have laws otherwise it would be anarchy. I don't think we would enjoy that much, or at least not for too long.
Maybe it was mass slaughter of others, but it wasn't good and He knew it. When we see something will go terribly wrong with our kids actions we intervene.
That's not a good explanation, IMO. Then what of all the other mass slaughters throughout history? Where was the intervention then?
That was just "for example". I don't know myself what they were thinking, no one does. It must have been something that would alter the future too much. We just don't know and have to admit it. Details are missing let's not loose focus.
Hello all; Mr. Being here. Those last two comments were Mrs. Being.
My wife can use creative examples at times I know.
I agree with designs, Dagney and a lot of other statements here.
The belief I hold for GOD making humankind wait these eons is;
to allow man to develop his understanding before Jesus judges.
This doesn't effect GOD's sovereignty, but is a result of His justice.
Not that these centuries have been painless to humanity,
but that GOD won't have man judged with out wisdom on the matter.
Hey Knowsnothing, I did a video on this a while back that may help you in your question:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htRbaYYRbKg
-Sab
A very interesting thread that never quite got fleshed out.
Sabastious' video is a bit rambling but he brings out some important points and paradoxical issues.
Particularly about 7 mins into the video, the point about humans not having the ability to prove it can rule itself properly because of constant interference and intervention by both God and Satan is very interesting. In fact, for the last 2000 years there has been zero intervention by God but lots by Satan, so it is all lop-sided. We notice in the case of Job that after severe interference and testing by Satan (but not to the point of death) Job got hugely rewarded by God. So God stood right back and didn't interfere, then Satan took everything and tested him in every imaginable way except to the point of death, then after being loyal (but still reproved) God stepped in and restored everything to Job three-fold.
Some of my additional thoughts on the subject I've had after a lot of recent rumination:
If there is to be no intervention by God at all in order for the full consequences of unlimited free will and Satanic interference to bear its rotten fruit, then why for the first 4,000 years of human history did God constantly intervene and reveal himself to a small segment of human Society, which the Bible claims to be a record of. Why has God selectively intervened/revealed himself to the Israelites/Jews and in the case of Jesus amazing miracles were performed where thousands of persons were cured of disease, illness, etc, but totally done nothing for anyone else.
And why stop at 33 AD? Why intervene and communicate with a human beings for the first 4000 years then disappear for the next 2,000 years? Why would Jesus' resurrection require God to stop revealing himself? Why does Jesus say "I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things" to his followers but let untold babies, little children, men and women suffer so horribly and die in the meantime? Its selective interference.
In the case of Job, God put a limit on Satan's interference. So why then could that same limit not also apply to other humans? Why couldn't Satan just be told that he can do whatever he likes but he cannot cause the suffering and deaths of innocent babies for example?
Or if its all about free will, why not give everyone carte-blanche for total free will but put a limit on it at hurting or killing others.
And why would Satan cause evil and suffering anyway, since that only weakens his apparent claim that humans can get on fine without him and makes a choice for God's rule look more attractive. Wouldn't it make more sense to make life as comfortable and wonderful as possible so that people would not feel any need for God's intervention and help (apart from the desire not to die). If the world was like that, why would anyone feel a need to pray to God unless threatened with the prospect of death? Wouldn't that serve Satan's purposes more than causing untold suffering and evil which makes people yearn for God's help more?
Or is it a tactic of Satan to cause lots of evil and suffering (world wars, crime, starvation, et) to make God look bad and cause people to curse God, like Job's wife? "Curse God and die!" she said. If that is the case, then if Satan is permitted to directly interfere and cause so much untold horror and pain on the human race then isn't it incumbent on God to balance the scales a bit by preventing Satan or doing positive things to make us feel somewhat assured of his existence and that he cares?
Is it fair for God to expect us to believe he is our loving heavenly father and pray to him to "deliver us from the wicked one" then allow Satan to test us and interfere in humanity in ways where this belief and prayer becomes impossible for many? Is it reasonable for any parent to expect a child's love by neglecting them, and even worse, neglecting them when they are suffering?
If belief in Jesus is so crucial to everlasting life, then should not God's word the Bible have been available very early right so it spread right around the globe? Shouldn't the gospel message have been spread around the whole planet so everyone had equal opportunity to learn who God really is? Instead, we find most of the planet is not Christian and Islam, Buddhism and various other non-Christian religions are in the majority. Whole blocs of the population are more or less atheist. How can these people be judged worthy of eternal destruction where Christianity has never got a foothold?
Confusing the language at Babel caused the segmentation of the human population into different cultures, languages and beliefs, which has greatly hindered the spread of the gospel message and instead allowed false religion to take root. Was God really so threatened at their building a high tower (rather silly to think he would). Another troubling paradox.
Regarding the flood, how fair was it to divinely reveal himself to Noah and no one else. So in the end it was only Noah and his family who had faith who had the benefit of person divine revelation. The rest were sceptical scoffers but who could blame them, since it had never rained before and they had not had any personal revelation.
The fact that only 8 persons could believe and so survived out of the untold thousands or millions who perished shows that the test was too hard. Were those millions who perished in the flood, including children, any worse than the apostle Thomas 2000 years later who refused to believe in Christ's resurrection until he could put his fingers in Christ's side? And so after 2000 years of absolutely nothing, complete silence and non-intervention from God, can persons eally be blamed today for wondering if he actually exists and/or is sceptical that he cares and will one day intervene?
Even Jesus' apostles who witnessed his miracles said "give us more faith". How much harder is it for us today?
And what is the point at all of saying ruling independently of God can work when that means we all die after 80 or so years? Like Pascals Wager, common sense dictates that eternal life with some restrictions/rules is obviously much better than 80 or so years of unlimited free will. Unless humans could still live forever or at least vast length of time despite rebellion, the whole issue seems pointless from the start if independence from God means a fleeting existence for a few decades compared to eternity. Case closed in favour of rule by God right from the get go!
Good Wikipaedia articles can be found on the subjects "The Problem of Evil" and "Pascals Wager"
