Is part of the Apostle Paul story taken from the life of Josephus.

by mP 11 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  mP

  http://vridar.wordpress.com/2007/04/25/the-shipwrecks-of-josephus-and-paul-part-3/

  Robert Gnuse listed 12 coincidences of content between the two. His article is “Vita Apologetica: The Lives of Josephus and Paul in Apologetic Historiography” [JSP 13.2 (2002) 151-169]. The main difference is that Josephus is travelling to Rome on behalf of god-fearing priests who have been unjustly accused and forced to plead their case before Caesar.

  1. A Roman procurator, Felix, is involved in both accounts (cf Acts 24.1-27)
  2. Jewish religious leaders are involved in both accounts (priests in Vita and Paul in Acts)
  3. Felix causes Jewish religious leaders to be imprisoned (cf Acts 24.1-27)
  4. Felix’s actions result in prisoners going to Rome (cf Acts 25.10-11)
  5. The Jewish religious leaders are unjustly accused (cf Acts 24-26)
  6. Journey to Rome is by ship (cf Acts 27.1-44)
  7. The sea journey to Rome seeks to effect justice at the imperial level to undo injustice done at the provincial level (cf Acts 24-27)
  8. The ship not only sinks (cf Acts 27.41-44)
  9. But chooses to sink in the Adriatic Sea (cf Acts 27.27)
  10. The heroes, Josephus or Paul, act with courage and provide leadership (cf Acts 27.31-38)
  11. All passengers survive (presumably in Josephus’s account) (cf Acts 27.44)
  12. Both heroes pass through Puteoli (cf Acts 28.13-14)

  What are the odds of all those similarities ?
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  Bubblegum Apotheosis

  Maybe Flavious Josephous story was taken from the Apostle Pauls story? I don't think so but it sounds conspiracy! Paul's death around 66 C.E. MP do you own all three books of his? "The Jewish Wars, Antiquities of the Jews" "Against Apion", Flavious own time line does not agree, with Josephous own written history. He was fighting against the Romans around the time Paul had died, was captured and put in prison, told "General Titus Father, he would become the next Ceasar, promoted to work with this Father and son team!
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  mP

  bubble:

  Paul's death around 66 C.E. MP do you own all three books of his? "

  MP
  Firstly I know Josephus live until the 90s and this is quite a different date to Pauls traditional death. Again we really have no firm authority or secondary evidence for when exactly Paul died. The Bible itself says nothing that can help. Personally its hard to make any opinion on this. Then again it doesnt change my statement either. Its hard to explain these conincidences.

  bubble

  The Jewish Wars, Antiquities of the Jews" "Against Apion", Flavious own time line does not agree, with Josephous own written history. He was fighting against the Romans around the time Paul had died, was captured and put in prison, told "General Titus Father, he would become the next Ceasar, promoted to work with this Father and son team!

  MP

  While your bit about Jospehus fighting against the Romans is true, again you give no proof of when Paul died. The same RCC says a lot of other things that have been shown to be simply made up.

  We know very little of Paul, we have no proof of when or where he died. There is no reason to suppose that the Paul story did not have parts inspired by Jospheus.

  Other interesting parallels between the two men are

  - both were comfortable with gentiles, while not amazing or rare it was different from most jews.

  - Josephus prosecuted troublesome jews according to his own writings. This could fit the story that Paul gives of his earlier mission.

  - both were very well educated by the elite. as you probably know Jospheus was an elite and was taught in the best of the best religious and schools of all Judea.

  If you can show definitive proof for Pauls traditional dating of his travels please give.
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  Bubblegum Apotheosis

  Interest thread MP, according to various sources Josephous was born between 37-39 C.E. His journey to Rome to release some trouble making priest, is pegged around 64 C.E. He joins the fight against Rome(66-67), he is put in chains and will await his death. His uncanny ability to see talent (use scriptures, make Vespaspian "The Messiah"), zealously tells General Titus Father "Vespaspian", "You will become Ceasear of Rome", Vespaspian was superstious, (F.J.s prediction was out there far!) this keeps Flavious locked up(67 C.E)(instead of killed), until his Father becomes Emperor of Rome. Josephous is now a prophet, joins forces with General Titus to quash the rebellion in Isreal, with as little bloodshed as possible (70 C.E).

  Paul's sole intent was to preach to Ceasar (Nero, what badluck!) his conversion to Christ is 36 C.E., two to three years before Flavious is born. The consensus of scholars places Pauls death after writing 2 Timomthy, between 60-64 C.E. Nero killing him. Paul was in prison, set free, put back in, before Flavious made his trip to Rome(63-64 C.E.), to secure the release of the priest. Flavious's own account, he finds favor with the ruler (The ruler had a woman who was either Jewish or knew of their religion) Does the time line seem right to you? Good question MP, enjoy them!
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  mP

  bubble:

  Paul's sole intent was to preach to Ceasar (Nero, what badluck!) his conversion to Christ is 36 C.E., two to three years before Flavious is born.

  mP

  I am aware that Josephus was an opportunist and also of his change to help Rome. Repeating to me some of points with unsubstantiated dates is hardly proof of when and where Paul died. However again where is your proof for any of these comments. Even the Bible doesnt say Paul tried or spoke to Nero. Nero is not even mentioned by name or implication in any of Pauls letters real or fraudulent.

  bubble:

  The consensus of scholars places Pauls death after writing 2 Timomthy, between 60-64 C.E. Nero killing him. Paul was in prison, set free, put back in, before Flavious made his trip to Rome(63-64 C.E.), to secure the release of the priest.

  MP

  The truth is we dont really know when Paul died. Add a few years to 64AD and we have several new Emperors any of them could have killed him if he was there in Rome at that time. Again the only proof is tradition taken from the corrupt myth making Roman Catholic Church. Im not sure i believe the RCC, its a little hard accepting their many nonsenses especially when they are the only source.

  The RCC itself tells us that Peter died on an upside down cross and establshed the vatican on the very spot it sits today. History has established its actually an old Mithra temple site, their statue of Peter is actually Jupiter if i recall. Funnily enough the name Peter can be found in Ju PITER!

  bubble:

  Flavious's own account, he finds favor with the ruler (The ruler had a woman who was either Jewish or knew of their religion) Does the time line seem right to you? Good question MP, enjoy them!

  MP

  Yes but just repeating the start of Jospehus collaboration with the Romans again hardly disproves my original question and assertion.

  The fact is the Bible in the book of Acts tells us on more than one ocassion how Paul found the light. The problem is they dont agree with each and flat out contradict each other. Not all Pauline letters are recognised as genuinie, many have been dated by scholars to be far later than when Paul supposeduly died.

  Somehow it feels to me that you simply trust all these traditions that date Pauls life and death as fact when its quite easy to imagine they could be very different simply because we have little evidence either way.
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  Phizzy

  Great thread ! I had never thought to question the time of Paul's death, though I was aware it could only be guessed at rather than known for sure, but if the hypothesis is correct this is red hot stuff, it would put the conversion of Paul ,as it is told, and the timing of that conversion in doubt too, and hence the whole beginning of Christianity would be even more doubtful than it was !

  Thanks for posting this info, and your views on it.

  This may of course just be a literary theory that cannot be proven, like the many that have grown up about Shakespeare's works, but it is interesting none the less.
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  NOLAW

  And many more would have been taken to Rome as they appealled to Caesar and had a Shipwreck and survived. All these must have been quite common those days.

  NOLAW
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  Bubblegum Apotheosis

  MP, did St Paul and Flavious Josephous really exist? Are the accounts in Acts reliable, critics in the 1800s started to attack not only St Paul, but the existence of Flavious Josephous. How can we date two men, who skeptics think might not have lived? We can't date the deaths of two fictious men, can we? Which claim are you making, Flavious Josephous existed? How can you pin point the death of either, if skeptics don't accept any of their writings? The arguments christians created a historical figure named "Saul of Tarsus" Christians are suppose to have created a historian named Flavious Josephous who placed "Christ" name in his book. These Christians hid his books for two thousand years, only to have the 1800s crowd of skeptics attack both men's historocity. Your move my friend.
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  mP

  NOLAW

  actually few people travel those distances in the ancient world. until recent times most ppl never travelled more than a few miles from where they were born. this is easily supported by the shear number of different langs compared until now where communication s and travel is killing this variety off. only two hundred years ago few ppl in france spoke french, one hundred years ago the figure was less than half and closer to 20% if i recall.

  few ppl would have gone too see the emperor, logistics would show this cannot be true. one man the emperor could only see a few ppl a month because he had other worries and probably didnt care. he would not be bothered getting involved in every dispute behind nobodies.

  how many ppl do you know whp have a car crash in the same suburb are attended by the same policeman goto caught and have the same judge etc. there are coincidences and theres more.

  even today w/ planes most americans have never left america or their own state. travelling today is much easier, a ship trip like that of paul or josephus is equivalent to going around the world perhaps twice.
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  mP

  bubble

  the book of acts has plenty of mistakes and contradictions. if you want samples just ask.

  iim sorry i have never heard any one state josephus was not historical.

  the fact is there is no historical record for paul outside his letters and acts and one or two other books. part if the problem about learning anything about paul is the fact we have no writings on any of his history. he claims to have run into lots of famous ppl but they never mention him. for being so famous its the jesus problem repeated, nobody writes about either for fifty or hundred years. why is it nobody wrote about their mirqcles or preaching? how is it ppl only remember to write one hundred years later ?.

  im sorry im confused are ypu asking questions or making statements?