Has anyone read Thucydides - beside the author of Daniel?

by kepler 51 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • kepler
    kepler

    AnnOMaly,

    What I said above was:

    "In all these instances the Hebrew text used the same word: achshdrphni"

    You say:

    the Aramaic word 'achashdarpan.

    Owing to early versions of Daniel being in Aramaic for chapters 1-6, the Aramaic word is not without some validity to this argument.

    Nonetheless, the Hebrew text for the examples I gave used a Hebrew word for satrap, whether the context was Hebrew or Aramaic.

    With the exception of the uses in Daniel, it made sense - unless Daniel were really talking about Persian monarchs consistently - and there was some evidence presented that might have been the case - or else the transcribers thought so.

    Matthew does not establish Daniel the nature of Daniel in the canon any more than Jude establishes Enoch as part of it. He is quoted or referred to. Then beign part of the canon of a certain nature - the problems won't end there. For example, compare Mark 2:26 with I Samuel 21:1-7.

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    Matthew does not establish Daniel the nature of Daniel in the canon any more than Jude establishes Enoch as part of it. He is quoted or referred to.

    If Matthew's testimony was taken on its own, you'd have a fair point. My argument was that, as well as Daniel being viewed as a prophet and the book attributed to him included in the sacred Jewish texts in BC times, we also have confirmation of Daniel's status by the words of Jesus and Josephus.

  • kepler
    kepler

    AnnOMaly,

    Regarding:

    Matthew does not establish Daniel the nature of Daniel in the canon any more than Jude establishes Enoch as part of it. He is quoted or referred to.

    If Matthew's testimony was taken on its own, you'd have a fair point. My argument was that, as well as Daniel being viewed as a prophet and the book attributed to him included in the sacred Jewish texts in BC times, we also have confirmation of Daniel's status by the words of Jesus and Josephus.

    ---------------------------------------

    While examining what you stated abov, when I checked on line concordances against the Greek Study new testament I had at home, I noticed a discrepancy. On line there was a supposed reference to Daniel in Mark 13:14 beside that of Matt 24:15. In the 3 NTs I checked including the NWT there was no reference to Daniel in Mark ( the TaNaKh, obviously was no help on this). Yet oddly enough, chapter 13 of Mark is very much like chapter 24 of Matthew otherwise - yet probably older. Both seem to say that "all of this will come to pass within this generation".

    When people argue from the standpoint of Biblical inerrancy,and therefore whatever they are arguing at the moment is revelation, it seems like they are reluctant to really subject the argument to much test.

    When I mentioned above something about what was said In Mark 2:26

    “have you never read what David did in his time of need when he and his followers were hungry – how he went into the house of God when Abiathar was high priest…”

    Aside from the primary point of the discussion, I Samuel 21:2-7 shows that Ahimelech was high priest at that time.

    Whether Jesus mentioned Daniel or not that day, the discussion in Matthew begins with Jesus observing after leaving the Temple that the whole of the Temple would come down. He gives similar talks in Mark and Luke without mention of Daniel.

    As to Josephus, his history of Jewish Antiquity reiterates much that is in the Bible and includes an account of the Maccabees rebellion as well. Does that make Maccabees part of the Sacred Scripture?

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    kepler,

    The LXX and the Qumran texts place Daniel in Scripture. Josephus said explicitly that Daniel's work was still being read in his day, that he was a prophet and that he was divinely-inspired (see a previous post for the reference). Thus, based on this data before us, the fact remains that the book of Daniel was canonical by late BC and continued as such throughout the 1st c. AD. Can we put this specific issue to bed?

  • kepler
    kepler

    RE:

    The LXX and the Qumran texts place Daniel in Scripture. Josephus said explicitly that Daniel's work was still being read in his day, that he was a prophet and that he was divinely-inspired (see a previous post for the reference). Thus, based on this data before us, the fact remains that the book of Daniel was canonical by late BC and continued as such throughout the 1st c. AD. Can we put this specific issue to bed?

    ------------------------------------------------------

    Daniel in the canon? Yes. Is he in the canon as a prophet? No. This is because the OT is divided into three parts.

    Daniel is in LXX along with other books that are in the canon and that are not. In Daniel’s case, it is in the Hebrew Testament under the 3 rd category of “Other Writings”. Even Josephus acknowledged that this exists. Daniel’s presence in Qumran is simply as one of many texts. Being at Qumran does not make a text part of the canon either. In fact, a couple of the Qumran texts throw some light on where some of Daniel’s stories originated (e.g., the story of Nabonidus and his ulcer). As to whether Daniel was placed in the canon late in BC or early AD, I have no way to verify.

    Josephus is a historian. If a rabbinical council in Janina did not resolve the question of Daniel, then I don’t think Josephus on his own account will settle the matter either. But there is still the problem of Daniel’s contents. Another ancient historian, Herodotus, closer to the original subject matter by several centuries, attests that “Astyages had reigned 35 years before he was deposed in the manner I described . … Cyrus treated him with great consideration and kept him at his court until he died.”

    He was the last king of the Medes. Akkadian: Istemegu.

    Darius in Old Persian is Darayavarhush or “Guardian of good”. What does it mean in Mede? Anything?

    ----------

    Quoting T. Henshaw’s “The Writings, the Third Division of the Old Testament Canon, 1963, Humanities Press, NY.

    “The first clear conception of the Canon meets us in the pages of the Jewish historian Josephus. In his Contra Apionem (I. 38-43), written to establish the antiquity of the Jews and the trustworthiness of their history, he writes,

    ‘We have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another; but only 22 books, which contain the records of all past times and which are rightly believed in. And of these, five belong to Moses, which contain the laws and the tradition of the origin of mankind till his death for a period of 3,000 years. From the death of Moses until the reign of Artaxerxes, king of Persia, who reigned after Xerxes ( or Ahasuerus), the prophets who came after Moses wrote down the things that were done in their times in 13 books. The remaining books contain hymns to God and precepts for the conduct of human life.’ …

    Since Daniel in Chapter 9, verses 1 to 2 seems to claim that he was active after Ahasuerus, by the words of Josephus Daniel has already disqualified himself as a prophet.

    In as much as Daniel and Esther both fall into the bin of Other Writings, they are worth examining for some of their features.

    In the January 1, 2012 Watchtower appeared an article titled, “Imitate their Faith: She Acted Wisely, Bravely and Selflessly”. In a sidebar, there are several defenses of the veracity and historicity of the story, including the strange absence of God’s name in this Bible book.

    As to the existence of Esther's mentor Mordecai: “What is more, secular records do show that a man named Marduka, a Persian equivalent of Mordecai, served as a court official in Shushan at the time described in the book.” ... Hmmm. Marduka. Like Marduk the Babylonian god?

    It was the Cyrus Cylinder that decreed that the Jews and other captive peoples in Babylon could return to their homelands, but the WT presumes that there was some sort of religious persecution that prevented the author of Esther ( was it Esther? I mean, if Daniel wrote Daniel…) from using the name of God even once. Something that the author of Daniel did not have to deal with evidently. But they fooled the censors! The name was put it in there as an acrostic. With 22 letters in the Hebrew alphabet and no vowels, I wouldn’t be surprised if it is there several times, diagonal, vertical and across. The WatchTower article fails to mention that another criticism of the book is that Mordecai’s background is quite similar to Daniel’s since Esther 2:5-7 (NWT) relates:

    “A certain man, a Jew, happened to be in Shushan the castle and his name was Mordecai the son Ja’ir, the son of Shimei, the son of Kish a Benjaminite, who had been taken into exile from Jerusalem with Jeconiah, the king of Judah, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon took into exile. And he came to be the caretaker of Hadassah, that is, Esther, the daughter of his father’s brother.” If Mordecai had been deported from Jerusalem to Babylon in the reign of Jeconiah or Jehoiachin in 598 BC, that would made him over 125 years old when in the 12 th year of Xerxes I (474 BC) he became grand vizier. But that’s nothing compared to the claim of Daniel, who attests to have served under the son of Ahasuerus, Darius.

    If Judith, for example, were excluded from the canon and placed in what has been called variously the deutero-canon or apocyrpha depending on circumstances, there is the implication that some of the books we have inherited from the ancient Jews might simply be stories or novellas, not composed exactly like Aesop’s fables, but at the very least in common with them since they might have a moral in the telling. The story of Daniel is less vindictive than Esther’s, but they are both nationalistic. They are also about poor people who made good at the centers of power.

    That the WatchTower would attest to the veracity of both the Esther and Daniel books is not surprising. and not much of a reference. Had the WatchTower claimed that there was a work of fiction somewhere in the Protestant Canon, that would have been of much more significance.

    As to the first Darius, who reigned after Cyrus and Cambyses, in his succession he had to confront several revolts. These included the Medes. The full translation of the Darius Behustin inscription is on Wikipedia. Sections 31-33 deal with the revolts of the Medes led by Phraortes whom Darius deals with ruthlessly during campaigns in 522 and 521.

    As to putting this to bed, I would say that had Matthew not decided to make passing reference to Daniel and English language readers were more aware of how Thucydides referred to the invaders from Asia, in the US there would be a lot less belligerence broadcast on UHF TV channels every night.

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    Re: Daniel's canonical status and his place among the prophets in BC times. We're going round in circles. See previous posts. See the Josephus reference from Antiquities. I'm not sure why you continue to flog this dead horse.

    But there is still the problem of Daniel's contents.

    The only historical problem so far is identifying Darius the Mede.

    Another ancient historian, Herodotus, closer to the original subject matter by several centuries, attests that "Astyages had reigned 35 years before he was deposed in the manner I described . ... Cyrus treated him with great consideration and kept him at his court until he died."

    He was the last king of the Medes.

    So? How does that negate Darius the Mede's nationality or that he ruled Babylon for a time?

    "A certain man, a Jew, happened to be in Shushan the castle and his name was Mordecai the son Ja'ir, the son of Shimei, the son of Kish a Benjaminite, who had been taken into exile from Jerusalem with Jeconiah, the king of Judah, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon took into exile. And he came to be the caretaker of Hadassah, that is, Esther, the daughter of his father's brother." If Mordecai had been deported from Jerusalem to Babylon in the reign of Jeconiah or Jehoiachin in 598 BC, that would made him over 125 years old when in the 12th year of Xerxes I (474 BC) he became grand vizier.

    Did it not occur to you that it was great-grandfather Kish who was taken into exile in 597 BC?

    That the WatchTower would attest to the veracity of both the Esther and Daniel books is not surprising. and not much of a reference. Had the WatchTower claimed that there was a work of fiction somewhere in the Protestant Canon, that would have been of much more significance.

    Don't be a goon. The WTS is not going to claim that either Esther or Daniel are works of fiction since they agree with the rest of Protestantism that the present Bible canon is God's Word. Your 'objections' (many of which have been flimsy IMO) are outside the scope of the WTS, a Protestant-rooted religion, but rather relate to whether the books of the Bible have any historical validity per se. If this is what you're wanting to center on in your letter, you're targeting the wrong audience.

  • kepler
    kepler

    AnnOMaly

    --------------

    RE:

    Don't be a goon. The WTS is not going to claim that either Esther or Daniel are works of fiction since they agree with the rest of Protestantism that the present Bible canon is God's Word. Your 'objections' (many of which have been flimsy IMO) are outside the scope of the WTS, a Protestant-rooted religion, but rather relate to whether the books of the Bible have any historical validity per se. If this is what you're wanting to center on in your letter, you're targeting the wrong audience.

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    Speak for yourself and not for the rest of Protestantism. Many of my sources are Protestant. As well as annotated Jewish and Catholic Bibles.

    The discrepancies are all over the place. I don't think the audience would be here if they aren't trying to examine it for themselves.

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    kepler,

    Bible-believing Protestants and JWs believe that the Protestant Bible, which contains the books of Esther and Daniel, are God's true Word. Therefore, the WTS are not going to claim they are unhistorical works of fiction. Period.

    The 'audience' I was referring to was the WTS - y'know, those readers of the big, long letter you are writing, questioning their take on things, and is supposed to be including the Question 28 in your opening post, remember?

  • Augustin
    Augustin

    Dear Ann,

    I respect your position re: the date of composition for the Book of Daniel. As to historical problems, I see (at lest) two problems: (1) The identity/historicity of "Darius the Mede", and (2) the historical information provided in Dan 11:40-45. As to other problems, I think we (with a little bit of special pleading) can provide acceptable answers.

    As to the Biblical canon, I think we should realise that it is somewhat anachronistic to speak about a "canon" before, say, the second or third century CE. But, obviously, there was scriptures considered as authoritative. And in the first century (B)CE, the Book of Daniel was one of these scriptures.

    Regards

    A.

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    Hi Augustin,

    All I'm arguing for is the historicity of the narratives (Dan. 11:40-45 is, of course, prophecy - a different animal), that the writer of Daniel wasn't mistakenly talking about Darius I, that Belshazzar could legitimately be called a 'king' and Nebuchadnezzar could be considered his 'father,' that there was a deportation of young nobles in the year the writer claims, and that the book was 'canonical' in the sense of already being classed as authoritative, sacred Scripture by late BC times.

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