She's back and I could really use some advice!

by OneDayillBeFree 21 Replies latest jw experiences

  • tootired2care
    tootired2care

    That is a tough spot your in. The only reason you have to be dishonest is because of the position you've been put in not your fault. My advice is if you really care about this girl be patient and give it time. Talk to her a lot about the "new generation" interpretation and the fact that the number of annointed is increasing, and follow up with some logical questions. Point out odd things in the watchtower; the Holy Spirit articles a few weeks ago had plenty of things to talk about.

    Keep in mind if you do get her to leave, too you'll have to be a replacement for all that is familiar to her; so she will need re-assurance from you that you aren't just going to abandon her when the chips land. I hope it works out for you, in many ways I'm in the same boat as you. I hope you get your freedom and the girl! Best of luck (yeah I said luck :p).

  • diamondiiz
    diamondiiz

    Your feelings can create a problem for both of you. You're starting the relationship not entirely honest even though you have the right motives. If you tell her you knew all the stuff about wts now you may lose her trust but you don't want to fall in the trap where your feelings for her grow to the point of returning to the cult because that's what she'll want.

    If she's not in, you may have a chance so start researching wts with her as if you've never done so prior. If she sees the wts for what it is, your relationship may continue to grow stronger or it will be short lived but at least you'll know where she stands after researching the wts. This can also open a possibility of her telling the elders stuff that may get you df, so you have to play it safe.

    If she has some doubts and isn't baptized she might be more willing to research with an open mind. Maybe ease her into what wts is by showing her that you were researching 607 articles wts printed last year and how they misquote the authors and how they ignore the important facts found on the tablets to force 607BC on the jws. Use Jonsson's rebuttals as they're really well written and easy to understand.

  • Blind_Of_Lies
    Blind_Of_Lies

    I actually met my wife under very similar circumstances. I told her within the first few weeks of us talking to each other regularly that I felt the JW’s were a cult and that I was going along with it to “keep the peace” with my family but I did not plan on living out my life a JW. In the same conversation I told her that I did have feelings with her and that I could see us having a future together BUT I was an open and honest person and I wanted her to know that before anyone said the “R” word. She replied asking me what my doubts were and I laid it allllll out. From 1900-2005 one thing after another. I tried not to get too detailed for fear of scaring her away but with every point I brought up she just nodded and said “yep I read that too.” We talked then looked at JWFacts.com and compared that stuff to the WT Library and it was obvious what decision we needed to make.

    So as it turns out she was pioneering not because she wanted too but because that was the only way her parents would let her live with them while she went through college. That is a true story. She couldn’t find a job that had the hours/pay that was enough to pay rent where she lived and she couldn’t find a roommate that she could tolerate living with so she did it for her parents.

    We made mad passionate love that night for the first time together.

    That conversation happened in June and we were married the following January. We continued to play the game with the witnesses not so much because we cared about being DF’d but rather we wanted wedding gifts. I wanted to DA before our wedding but she insisted that we get SOMETHING other than heartache and shunning out of our years of loyal service so we moved from our home town not long after we were married and never checked into the congregation in our new town. We refused to do a Witness wedding however, as we were having sex a couple times a day lol. We ended up getting a venue instead of even opening the can of worms that is having a wedding ceremony in a KH. We had a relative do the talk, walked down the aisle to a kingdom melody and after that, the DJ took over. We both have a letter of disassociation signed and dated along with my “blood card” in the envelope with my will and my non WT DPA/Will. We simply went off the grid.

    Your case is significantly less complicated as she is not baptized and has major doubts already and you don’t seem to care about anything witless related. I would simply lay it on the line with her. Tell her you want to be with her and you would like to see if it really turns into love (trust me buddy, it may feel like love now but it’s not love yet). Date for a few months, then move in with each other… and then if you guys don’t want to kill yourselves after living together for a few months… you can take it wherever you want.

    The point is, if you allow the elders to insert “Jehovah” into your relationship you may as well let the elders take a turn with her in bed too. This is YOUR life. This is YOUR relationship. This is YOUR future. You both need to make a level headed and clear minded decision.

    When the time comes, let us know where you are registered. I will gladly send you a wedding gift!

  • Miles3
    Miles3

    i agree with finally awake, she's lucky she has you caring for her before she wastes her life. Even if you two don't end up together, if you love her you sure would rather she had a chance to make an informed choice, even if she ends up not with you, then let her for sure end up not with you but also the slave to a publishing company.

    You're not lying to her, nor do you have to. You have feeling for her, you'd like to take your time getting to know each other first, but you're also a friend and has stuff you'd like to discuss with her. Take your time, introduce one subject after each other (take hints from jwfacts), starting with inocuitous and moving slowly to the more compromising information when you feel you can trust her more.

    If she's hesitant to look at it, you can explain that you've seen how even in the organisation some brother and sisters act like born-in catholics (no offense, replace it by any other religion if you prefer) and believe in anything without having checked it, and don't even know the history of their organisation. You're not lying, you're not lying anything, you're just guiding her and letting her find things by herself rather than telling her everything you found and now believe.

  • nugget
    nugget

    This has the potential to end badly but it does not necessarily mean that it will. I would be open with her and tell her where you stand as regards the organisation. You can express it that you have doubts about the faith and know what the consequences will be if you walk away. Because you have feelings for her you don't want your relationship built on a lie. It is fair to let her know since if you do walk away leaving her behind she may have to face consequences and unpleasantness due to her asociation with you.

    What I would say is if she expresses any doubts herself then suggest that it would be mistake to get baptised and she should check things out before she makes this step. Once she gets baptised then she could be shunned by family if she acts on doubts.

  • Morbidzbaby
    Morbidzbaby

    This is a tough one. My ex was not open and honest about his feelings about the WTS before we got married...He was honest about "having doubts" and "doing research", but I didn't know to what extent it went. A part of me knew that marrying him would make things easier on me because then when I didn't want to do service or wanted to skip meetings, I could just blame it on my husband (I know, horrible...). He was an easy scapegoat, I suppose. I cared about him, but I didn't know him long enough or well enough to say I truly loved him. We got married very quickly, which I personally feel was the biggest mistake. You may feel that burning desire to be with her all the time right now, but you don't really KNOW her...especially since you spent so much time apart and she started falling back into cult mentality. So, my first bit of advice is to take it as slowly as possible. The person you think you know now is the "cult" personality, not the "genuine" personality. There is a HUGE difference.

    My ex tried showing me some things he had found in his research, and while it seemed to make some sense, I was still heavily invested in the JW's (still questioned the existence of god and whatnot, but felt that if there was a "truth", this was probably the closest I would get to it, so I'd just deal). Eventually, he got back into the cult completely and became the WORST controlling and emotionally abusive husband. I was always quite lazy with keeping up the requirements of the cult, and I never could do enough to please him. He used the "headship" card quite often to force me out in service, force me to "pioneer" without putting my name on the list, insist we use the house for service, blame ME for his not getting appointed as a MS...the list goes on.

    The thing is, with or without the cult, we really were not right for each other. We used to take long walks like you and your girl do before we were married. We'd talk about a lot of things, but our hormones and emotions blocked out the fact that we had so little in common. My own emotional blindness didn't allow me to see that whenever we "talked" it was always him monologuing and me listening... He pretty much didn't give a shit about what I had to say...and if I did start talking about something that interested me, he would take the ball and run with it, making it his own and not giving me a chance to get back in on the conversation. Basically, "love" (aka infatuation when it's this early) blinds you to important things. Only TIME will bring out someone's flaws and help you to take the blinders off so you can see them for who they are... And if you're still willing to love them, even with their flaws, then there's hope.

    I tell you all of this to illustrate one simple fact. You can show her all the evidence you want to... It doesn't mean it's going to change her mind. Nothing my ex showed me stuck with me. I didn't give a crap about Bible prophecy or how the Watchtower got it wrong..."The light gets brighter, don'tcha know...". What changed my mind was not what he showed me. And, if I were still a JW, it wouldn't change my mind now, either.

    You could both leave the cult, you could get married, and then down the road she decides she wants to go back. Then what? You're baptized, so of course, she's going to try to get the elders to talk to you...revealing your apostasy, and basically getting you DF'ed...and then there's that "spiritual endangerment" factor in your marriage...a reason for her to separate with the elder's blessing (and possible coercion). What if by then you have children? I lost all of my children because my ex LIED and threatened MORE lies in order to make me leave. JW's will stop at nothing when it comes to removing what they consider a "cancer" from their midst. Trust me. He even had other JW's lined up to lie under oath for him. They will want to get you out by the root...your heart...your family.

    You could end up with a fantastic-ending fairytale. Who knows? You could also end up freaking her out, causing her to have doubts and then go to the elders about them...and then she's given no choice but to reveal the source: YOU, the evil apostate! You're really sticking your neck out for this, and personally, if it were me, I would really just be completely honest and tell her you have no plans of remaining a JW because the things you have learned about their history are just too much of a burden on your conscience to continue taking part in it and teaching others lies.

    If she doesn't run screaming to the elders, you might have a shot.

  • Lozhasleft
    Lozhasleft

    I like BlindofLies's story. Made me smile for them as a young couple keeping one step ahead of the WTBS. As for yourself, well, I think your motives have been good so far and I don't see it as dishonest. But if you continue in this relationship it will get dangerous if you deceive her. 1. She might decide to go to the elders and that will be awful for you both as you know 2. One or both of you might develop really deep feelings and unless you're both on the same 'page' as it were, it will be painful because the WTBS will divide you, and we all know how that story goes.....

    What would I do? Mmm it's not easy....I think I'd be inclined to ask the leading questions about the Org for a little while...not really committing yourself as to your absolute views...just concern. But before long at all, you either should suss out where she stands on the 'truth' having considered serious questions, or take the risk and come clean that these questions are ones you are struggling with yourself. Don't go down the road of making her choose between you and the Org because that will come back and bite you on the bum later.

    Sorry, I'm not so straight forward, I think a lot depends on how future conversations pan out before you can know what's best to do.

    Loz x

  • Blind_Of_Lies
    Blind_Of_Lies

    Thanks Lozhasleft-

    That is the first time I have ever put all those events down on paper and it really is a good story. We EXCLUDED the church on everything we were doing. We went to just enough meetings that people didnt bug us and we came and went just before and just after the songs. We didnt ask the elders for any advise, input, permission or anything we just did it while belonging to popular families and living just on the fringe. We drove away from our wedding with about $2,000 in cash gifts and litterally a truckload of other gifts. I almost felt bad about playing them all out like that... almost.

  • jamiebowers
    jamiebowers

    I have to agree with the opinions of others who say that honesty is the best policy. However, since a relationship with your family is at stake, you can't be completely honest with her. It's a terrible situation to be in. Listen, my dear, you are very young, so you may not know that most people must meet several people before they find "the one". Your lady friend being "the one" for you is like winning the lottery...the odds are that great.

    If possible, cut out the romantic stuff with her for now and work on your fade. Just tell her that you both are too young to be dating, because according to WT rules, dating should only be done with a view to marriage. Make sure that questions about the WT that she must answer are included in every conversation you have. Let her do the researching and talking, so nothing can come back on you if she decides to stay in the cult.

    I know this is very tough, but please don't make the same mistakes that many of us have made. If you stay in the cult long enough for you two to be caught dating, then much more pressure will be put on her to get baptized and then for the two of you to get married. Then things will be much tougher than they are now.

  • garbonzo
    garbonzo

    Hmm. I was going to say to tell her the truth about what you know, but I see that you want to fade because of your family, so that will be bad for you if she goes and tells the Elders... bad situation. I guess it is in your best interest to keep doing what you are doing. Ask questions and such, but don't commit. Maybe say you are concerned / doubtful but never really commit to anything. That way she can't say too much to the Elders. The Elders will just think that you are weak if she does tell.

    I would suggest to STICK TO THE BASICS with her. Other questions are okay, but make sure the focus is on the basics. What I mean by that is sticking to the outer rim. Focus on questions like, Why do you think this is the truth? Whatever she says, question that. A lot will say it's because JWs seem to follow the Bible more than any other religion. (like preaching) Make sure you study up on the JWFacts.com website. Escpecially the "preaching" article, as it debunks everything the WTS uses to support that claim. If she understands that, then she will start to question. She may say, "What about this?" Answer that. Debunk that teaching, whatever she brings up. Debunk it. She will eventually have nothing to stand on. You say she is new, so she might not be able to cite things from the top of her head. Be considerate and ask the question yourself if she is pausing trying to think. If she needs time, tell her that whenever she has a question she can look it up or ask you and you guys can research it together. Try not to be authoritive on the matter. People don't like it when you tell them what to do. Why do you think the Society always tells you to direct people to the book and don't talk from your head? So instead of doing the above from the top of your head, offer to research this with her, and say it in a way like you are partners. "We can research the WTS together." This way, it will be hard for both of you to come away with different ideas. You should all agree on what is the truth and what isn't. If the conversation gets sidetracked, make sure to focus it back to the basics before too long.

    If you get stuck on a subject what the JWs seem to have ground (this can happen, because the Bible is really open to interpretation), you can move on to another subject, but if that sticks with her and she keeps coming back to it as grounds to belive the WTS, it may be time to just set her straight on the Bible itself. I seriously doubt you will have problems reasoning with an intelligent person about the lack of evidence that the Bible is God's word. It's just not something you can argue against, if you do it right. (this is a reply to Morbidzbaby's reply, also) Either the person realizes the truth or they get a case of cognitive dissonance. Simple as that. You wouldn't want to be in a relationship with a person like that, anyway, is my guess. With the Bible, begin with the around the rim questions, again. Just the basics. "Why do you believe the Bible is the inspiried word of God?" Again, make sure it doesn't get sidtracked from the mainpoint. Sometimes people can bring up a side teaching you can't argue against that well. Even though they often don't do it intentionally, don't fall for it. Stick with the main points, as when those fall, everything falls with it. For instance, don't talk about whether Jesus existed or not. That's irrelevant. Even if he did exist, when the main points are argued against, there will be no reason to believe he was God's son, God, or anything else. Or even if he was (hypothetically, here), we already know the Bible isn't God's word therefore it is not HIS word. So talking about subjects like that is pointless. Stick to the outer rim.

    IMO, the outcome of atheism is a lot better when it comes to the real truth. When fighting the JW religion, you may be using arguements from another religion, which is biased themselves, and can be open for rebuttal. When argueing against the Bible, there really is no ground to stand on. On the other hand, coming to terms that the Bible is not true can be a harder thing to grasp for some people, especially if they grew up religious. That's why you see many ex-JWs who still believe in the Bible, even though it's just as wrong as the JW religion. Sometimes the best step is to get them to realize the JW religion is false and then get them onto the topic of the Bible's inspiration.

    Anyway, stick with the basic questions of the Bible and research them online. Get started with the Reddit Atheism FAQ if you haven't read it already. I wish I had learned about it earlier myself: http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/faq

    If you get stuck on something, ask someone on a science forum like SciForums (in the religion section). They helped me when I was researching whether the Bible was true. You can look up my thread if you want, but it is quite long: "A challenge to atheists" (not the one labeled #2) It may seem bias, but no one is saying to accept their word as truth. Reason on what they counter and see if it makes sense (it will). If you have to, you can look it up. Now do the same thing with her.

    If you decide to go the Bible route, here is a silver bullet contradiction that has to legitimate rebuttals as far as I know:

    According to the gospels of Matthew and Luke, Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great. But Luke also wrote that Joseph and Mary had to go to Bethlehem for a census by Quirinius while she was still pregnant, and this event has been dated at 6 A.D., or ten years after Herod the Great died in 4 B.C. There have been no historical records to indicate that any Roman census was held prior to 6 A.D.

    Either Matthew is wrong, or Luke is wrong. Or more likely, both are wrong, rofl. I fail to see how something inspired of God could make a mistake (and of course this is not the only one) like that. An inspired book should be infallible, no matter WHO it was written by. It could be written by turtles for all I care, as long as it's infallible. But the Bible is not, it is far from that.

    In my research, I haven't found a commentary that covers this.

    As I've said before, I was raised a Christian myself, but after diligent research and debate I couldn't continue to be oblivious to the lack of evidence that the Bible is indeed inspired of God. In fact, it seems the Isrealites and Christians borrowed from other religions, such as the Sumerians and Egyptians. I wouldn't want to have cognitive dissonance. Believing in something you know is wrong is against my personal principles, no matter how much you tell yourself it is right. I would rather die than have cognitive dissonance.

    Hopefully this helps!

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