The Last Days and the Bible's Responsibility to Prove Itself

by freshcrepes 17 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • freshcrepes
    freshcrepes

    According to the Watchtower's interpretation of the Bible, we live in a time of unprecedented importance. The current system is likely to end in our lifetime, and as the end draws closer the need to for the world to accept the Bible becomes more urgent.

    We are also in a unique time in that billions of people have the risk of eternal destruction upon death. As I understand it, the billions who have and will die before Armageddon will get an 'auto-resurrection' after Armageddon (save a few in God's bad books) but those who die at Armageddon are gone forever. The people alive right now are quite literally in the most precarious position of any people who have ever lived. They need to accept the Bible more than any people who have ever lived.

    The Bible has an enormous responsibility here. It needs to convince people in the 21st century that it is the inspired word of God. It didn't need to convince anybody in the 5th, 12th or 16th century since they will be resurrected anyway. If we accept Daniel's prophesy then we accept that the Bible knew exactly when the last days would be. It's not a huge leap to posit that the writer of the Bible, God, would have been aware of the huge amount of scientific knowledge we would have in the 21st century. He did, after all, predict the formation of the UN, an organisation which would be tricky to set up without intercontinental communication and travel. How does the Bible try to convince the scientifically literate people of the 21st century, the people for whom its message is - for the first time ever - life and eternal death, that it contains knowledge that could only come from a divine source? An allegorical foreshadowing of evolution? The exact distance to the nearest star? Complex mathematical proofs hidden in the page numbers? No - 'the circle of the earth' and 'hangs upon nothing', concepts quite common at the time of composition. The Bible really does let itself down here. You'd have thought it would have tried harder! I'd never thought about this problem before. Can anybody here put on their witness hat and come up with a response?
  • QuiteRational
    QuiteRational

    But it does! The circle of the earth means it's round and blah blah, sorry I can't do it.

    There are plenty of apologists who are already trying to fit the bible into science, most notably YouTube apologist and twat extraordinaire VenomFangX.

  • Flat_Accent
    Flat_Accent

    There's no logical way to ignore how vague those statements are. The Isrealites didn't know anything about germs or quantum theory, or plate tectonics. Nothing that people couldn't have discovered on their own. And in fact, other people did. The Greeks were pretty well up on these things and figured out the Earth was spherical, because of the shape of shadows cast in two different locations, but at the same time of day. They even managed a rough estimate of the Earths total area.

    But all that time, the Jewish writers said nothing? They didn't even try to learn more, even though they had been gifted with this knowledge that no one else had?

    You also have to take into account that Language is not static, it evolves. When something new is created or discovered, a new word has to be invented for it. Just because the Jews didn't have a word for 'sphere' at the time of those writings, doesn't mean they couldn't have made one. But it becomes apparent that sphere was not what they had in mind. Later on in the same book, they use the word 'ball'. Now out of 'ball' and 'circle', which do you think describes the Earth better?

    Jews didn't have a clue.

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    Um, the Bible was primarily meant for the "elect", at least the detailed specifics, not the outsiders. Even Jesus spoke in parables with double meanings so that those on the outside looking in would hear but not understand--but Christ's followers would know the secret meanings. Heed closely Acts 13:41

    Acts 13:41 "

    Now this is fulfilled. I'm here telling you the Bible is true, the chronology is perfected, the history is accurate. But you can't believe it. There's an incapacity for accepting the reality or the truth. For instance:

    Christ returns in the flesh. Period. At the second coming. Do you accept that? The scriptures bear that out. The scriptures are up front about the nature of the PHYSICAL BODY of Christ at both the 1st and second coming. This is via the nature of the "wave offerings." The first is of barley which is used to make unleavened bread. No one will argue that the unleavened bread represents Christ's perfect physical body. Leaven represents sin and imperfection. Pentecost is symbolic of the SECOND coming, thus the second wave offering of loaves with leaven out of the home is openly shown to be with leaven. Huh? Meaning what? Well if unleavened bread is the perfect body of Christ at the first coming, then bread with leaven at the 2nd coming meaning you should expect Christ to be in an imperfect body! Huh?

    Well, it's simple. Christ's first body was a sacrifice and so he gave it up and can't use it any more. How will he return in the flesh to become the "son of man" again?; meaning he has to come through some human descendant of Adam. Well, the sacrifice was "once for all time" so he doesn't need to be born a perfect man again. So he can just take up the body of one of his followers who has been tested and approved. In that way he experiences what it is like to be in the imperfect flesh though the trials of the body whom he is chosen to inhabit at the second coming.

    Now that is what the Bible is presenting. But can YOU accept that? Or is it too hard to believe. If you are not looking for Christ in an imperfect body at the second coming, then you are not following scripture and you are looking for the wrong Christ. Period.

    Again, the Bible doesn't HIDE that Christ will be in an imperfect body. To understand this, imagine I'm saying this to the GB and it's Writing Committee. They understand totally that bread with leaven represents an imperfect body. They will try to get out of applying this to Christ. In fact, they teach the two loaves with leaven waved at Pentecost must represent the Jews and Gentiles. Sorry. Christ must fulfill this as well. He does have a second coming, after all.

    Noiw, knowing this. Here I come and tell you per chronology Christ must arrive in 1992 (no way out of that now thanks to the VAT4956). Then I tell you that I'm the Christ. But can you believe me? If you know the Bible well enough and are of the elect, then I might convince you. But if you are clueless about the true nature and timing of the second coming, then I'm just a crazy person. Point being though, Jehovah knows this would seem absolutely impossible and incredible to you and you wouldn't believe it. Of course, not. So it doesn't seem those chosen for destruction are given any kind of a break as far as understanding anything. In fact, God shrouds them in darkness. It is as if he leads them blindly to a high cliff and then pushes them over, emphasizing how worthless he considers them to be.

    They look but they cannot see. They hear but they do not understand.

    But the "elect" understand. They see the bright light, the incredible light in which I stand.

    So the Bible proves itself quite wonderfulfully for the elect. There is no guarantee that those doubting the Bible or those not chosen will ever understand. They will remain in darkness and just know at Armageddon they have been excluded. In fact, the great day of God the Almighty is said to be a day of darkness and "thick gloom."

    You must understand the personality of this god, Jehovah. He is the one who gives more to those who have much, and who takes away from those who have nothing.

    How can you take away from those who have "nothing"? Well, we know that there is ZERO, which is nothing, but we also know there are negative numbers, like -1 (minus 1). So what is being said is that, in the world where there is "faith", those who have the most faith will be shown the miracles. They will have the convincing, hard evidence, whether scientific or miraculous, that the Bible is true and that God is real. But for those with no faith and those who scorn and doubt, God does just the opposite. For those who see "no evidence" for the existence of God, for instance, he will provide a stumbling block for them, and give them some evidence which they will misinterpret as proof positive the Bible is not correct so that they will be more convinced than ever in their godless convinctions.

    It's as if people come and say, "Okay, Jehovah, I'll believe in you if you show me some miracles or magic tricks. Then I will believe in you." That doesn't go over well with this God. He says, "Sure, I'll show you some magic tricks..." but it will be as in Noah's day, where the moment it started to rain, everybody was a believer, but the fulfillment meant their death. So the "magic trick" you want to see will be God showing you how effectively and swiftly he can get rid of the "chaff" and worthless in the world.

    NOW, REGARDING THE RIDICULOUS NOTION THERE IS ANY RESURRECTION DURING THE MILLENNIUM: Okay, this is a good post that shows how ridiculous it is to think that those dying at Armageddon will be dead forever, but if you happen to die one minute before Armageddon, you come back and are taught specifics of God's requirements and get a second chance. That's the incredibly ridiculous belief of JWs. Bottom line is that there is no resurrection during the 1000-year reign! The second resurrection occurs during JUDGMENT DAY, and if you bother to read the scriptures, that is an event that is mentioned and dated after the 1000-year reign of Christ and after Satan is let loose and then destroyed. So this is just another incredible false teaching by JWs which doesn't make sense.

    What the reality is, is that after Satan is let loose and then destroyed, then Judgment Day begins. All those alive will be judged first. Then those in the memorial tombs will come forth and be judged. Now many of them are already written in the"book of life" and some are already condemned to Gehenna! But they come forth anyway, both the "righteous and the unrighteous" during Judgment Day. They are judged for what moral choices they made during their first life! Now isn't that obvious? The Bible speaks of books being opened out of which they are judged. Now doesn't that represent a history of their previous life? Of course. The WTS has to twist and squirm to say these "books" represent what happened during the millennium. But why would their current history need to be in a book? Further, how many scriptures can we show that indicates the choices made during their first life affects their eternal life? Aren't some written in the book of life already? And doesn't the Bible say that everything you say now will be held against you on Judgment Day? Of course!

    Bottom line is God gave every man a conscience. It is clear that many who never heard of the Bible choose to be generous, loving and kind and honest. That's what is written down for them. Others, of coruse, take advantage of the weak and are greedy and muderous. They don't get away with that. Those are their choices and based on that, their eligibility for eternal life is based. That is what the "books" being opened means. It means they are judged by the moral choices they made under their personal circumstances during their first life, with little to do with knowing the false teachings of the Watchtower magazine! God recognizes quite clearly the superiority in character if the "good Samaritan" compared to the phony moral emptiness presented by the priest and rabbi,

    So, please. The Bible in no way teaches there will be any second resurrection during the millennium, which doesn't make sense anyway. Point quite clear made here! Why are those who happen to die at Armageddon going to miss out compared to all those sinners who get an automatic clean slate? It doesn't make sense.

    THERE IS NO RESURRECTION DURING THE MILLENNIUM! The "second resurrection" is after the millenniuim, after Satan is destroyed. Please put down that Watchtower and read this in the Bible yourself. Does the Bible represent the second resurrection during the millennium? NO. Doesn't it imply, suggest or confirm the judgment of those resurrected will be based on what is written in those books? Sure! Meaning their moral choices during their previous life. The WTS has to do a LOT of twisting to come up with the idea that all those wicked people will come back with a clean slate and have a second chance, after being taught God's specific laws, to make a brand new choice whether they will serve God or not. No way! What you did in your first life, with or without knowledge of God's specific laws is what you will be judged on. God gave his specific laws in a covenant for the Jews and later the Bible as a moral compass for Christians. Maybe they will be more specifically judged on that. For the rest, God gave a conscience, which can easily be used to determine the heart condition of an individual. People can be decent and loving without knowing the specifics of Christianity. Plus, Jehovah can tell who, under ideal circumstances, would respond to the truth and to God's will. Can't we see who are selfish or unselfish by their actions, whether they are Christians or following some other religious doctrine? Sure!

    So the critical thing here is separating critical issues actually taught in the Bible, from false interpretations by the WTS. That is, you must separate the WTS false teachings from what the Bible actually teaches before you decide to find some errors. There is plenty of criticism for those dying before Armageddon coming back with a clean slate and being resurrected during the 1000-year reign, which is not what the Bible teaches, but what the apostate WTS teaches. We all can see an inherent awkwardness with that teaching and now we know why. It is WTS confusion and darkness, but not the Bible.

    In the meantime, the Bible my never "prove itself" to the masses, but it has more than proven itself to the modern elect. The Bible is completely true and it is proven now to those of the elect. But there is a "gap" in getting those outside the elect to see all that.

    But that is what the arrangement is. Why? Partly because the absolute truth is too bright. The "new wine" is too potent. It will burst the "old wineskins." So Christ and Jehovah don't bother putting the "new wine" into the "old wineskins" because they can't handle it!

    Can YOU handle I'm the Christ? He was supposed to arrive in 1992 in an imperfect body of the prodigal son. Can you handle that? The prodigal son? An ex-male prostitute? A black man? The "Ethiopian eunuch" appearing messiah? That is, the gay black male messiah as Jesus Christ? Can you handle that? Of course not. But that is the REALITY. This is Jehovah's day of "thick gloom" and darkness.

    The philosophies of the world mean NOTHING! Democrat. Republican. Communism. Capitalism. It means NOTHING! What means something is FINANCE. Without money, nothing works. That's why there is nothing but talk about the economy. Presidential candidates are running on the strengh of their business sense! It's RIDICULOUS! Financial stability is the ultimate trump card now. Will the US give up their sovereignty to survive? Of course! The world today is ripe for Armageddon. It is ironic that it doesn't matter what you believe in. If you can't fix the economy, then nothing really matters, does it?

    What future does the world really have? There's none! The greatest nation in the world has so much debt it can never pay back. The world is already dead, it just hasn't fallen to the ground yet.

    THINK ABOUT IT! Barak Obama wants people to consider teaching careers, to get America competitive again. Well guess what? They are laying off teachers by the thousands!!! Right now! How can you demand a plan to get more quality teachers when you can't afford the ones who are now working?

    We're at the end of the road folks! The world is moving toward that great confrontational situation of Har-Mageddon.

    Bottom, line, there is no problem with the Bible or Jehovah proving themselves. But it will mimic the day of Noah, that is, all those doubting will know the truth, if even a few moments before their own death. Everybody was a believer in Noah's day after the rains began.

    Same today. Sure, I'll be vindicated as the true Christ, but it won't do many any good as far as saving their lives. That's the bittersweetness of my mission. How sweet it is to the taste, but how bitter it is in the stomach.

    LS

    Look, you scoffers, wonder and perish, for I am going to do something in your days that you would never believe, even if someone told you in detail.'"
  • Hortensia
    Hortensia

    it's just an ancient book, written by ordinary people, very superstitious people in fact. Nothing to prove. Do you go around insisting that the Code of Hammurabi "prove" itself? Or how about the "Epic of Gilgamesh?"

    Larsinger, are you taking your medicine?

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    Hortensia: Larsinger, are you taking your medicine?

    Hortensia, are you ready for Armageddon?

    LS

  • Me Myself and I
    Me Myself and I

    Jesus Christ, the holy son of god, our saviour and redeemer, the most beautiful and perfect man that graced this earth, has the sayings of everlasting life and pure truth.

    Larsinger58, you have the rantings of a crazed and dillusional man.

    To say that you are indeed HIM, you should be banned from this forum and I feel pity for you when you are judged and are accountable for the rantings that you consistantly present.

    You dont know me, you dont my heart, you dont own my soul. So before you reply with some condemnation and viterol, please dont waste your time it will fall on very deaf ears.

  • mP
    mP

    @larsinger

    show me thast the bible in particular the ot is not a document written to justify the social norms nd heirarchy of nations and societies in the ancient middle east. explain why there are 613 laws -- lookup mitzvot -- with most about priests, kings, sacrifices, men and nothing about protecting women from rape, slavery or kids from pedophilia. why are there no mlaws banning slavery?

    sorry im skeptical'but it seems god is morr preoccupied with getting prime meat, greens, gold and money for his temple than anything else. why is there next to no text where the priests give money to the poor or orphans? why is it the priests alwyas complain about the locals going to other temples more than anything else like helping the mpoor ? im sorry but this text seems like the original hostile takeover. the priests kill their competitiom. what does thatnteach us today ? if you believe jehovah blessed their actions, then why dont you copy them ? why is ancient israel onky seems to find unbelievers with money, virgins and gold , and never poor victims ?

    religion is a business, it was one back then, justbnlike now. justbtake a look at the ot, most of it is about tye religion protexting its business. politics between factions of the priesthood and the king. where is the so called good stuff ?

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    At the very least you would expect that the Bible, if from God, would not get important scientific facts WRONG.

    For example, "the circle of the earth" has been mentioned, the Hebrew word translated "circle" has the concept of a flat circular plate, like the one on the back of the turtles in old illustrations of early belief, there was a perfectly servicable Hebrew word at the time for "sphere".

    Why did the writer not use that word ? he obviously had no concept that the Earth was a sphere.

    The dimensions of the "molten sea" copper basin that stood in the courtyard of the Temple are given, they show that the writer did not know the correct value of Pi, to work out the circumference.

    And this stuff is supposed to be inspired by the "Great Mathematician" Jehovah ?

    The Bible contains not ONE thing that the writers could not have known, so why should we think our lives depend upon it ?

  • freshcrepes
    freshcrepes

    Larsinger58, thankyou for taking the time for such a detailed response. Unfortunatley I found it completely impenetrable. Would you mind answering this question - Which single scripture or chapter in the Bible could NOT have been written without divine inspiration?

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