LOL, just send them a disassociation letter at the same time admitting unfaithfulness to your wife. Who cares what the elders or the congregation or the GB think or do. Do what is right and benefits another. Free up your former wife to have a life...and free up yourself from any semblance of the fear of man.
Your advice please on "Scriptual Divorce"
by karter 35 Replies latest jw friends
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NewChapter
LOL to Eggnoggg. Cuz that had to be a joke.
I can tell you my experience on the matter. I don't know if any of this will help.
I was married twice. The first husband was not a JW. He never told me what went on in his personal life after he left, and I really didn't want to stalk him. Even though I needed a scriptural divorce to move on with my life, it was not lost on me how inappropriate it would be to ask him about his sex life. I was pretty much stuck, unless I wanted to become the kind of person I despised. I could have followed him and sat outside his house and taken someone along to witness with me. I eventually became inactive for a few years and remarried. JC for all of that.
My second husband got baptized after we married, so he was a JW at the time of our divorce. This is what the elders told me at THAT time (and remember, everything is subject to change with these loons). They said is he was not a witness, then his admission to me alone was enough to give me the scriptural divorce. No second witness needed, no letter. They explained it would be between me and Jah at that point. But if he was a JW (new cong. they didn't know the guy) then I needed the two witnesses. So I had to get him to admit to adultery (we were still legally married, but had been separated for a long time) in front of another witness. He actually did that. They tracked him down, and he admitted it to them too. From my understanding though, they never df'd him, and he never went back. I don't know why they didn't DF him, but I wouldn't trust that to be universal.
So it's a problem. Your ex may not feel like she can move on (as I felt for 5 years) and this will distress her. Yes we know it's a cult, we know it isn't right, but we also know we have all been there at one time. On the other hand, if you have family still in, you don't want to take any chance you will be shunned. So you making it possible for her to move on, would really hurt you in your personal life. That is the corner they have backed you and your ex into.
I doesn't sound like she's ready to see this is a cult. Perhaps after some more enforced nun-hood she will start to open her eyes. Or maybe she'll do what I did, and end up with a non-JW (even though he became one afterward). She could even commit fornication herself, be repentant, get reproved, and then you could inform the elders you don't intend to forgive her and that she is free to remarry.
These things happen all the time. People feel pressured to have sex to change the situation they have been boxed into. Disgusting isn't it?
NC
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NOLAW
Just thinking that she may not be scripturally free to remarry but they will not DF her either if she proceeds and marry. No marriage in the Kingdom Hall though.
At any case DO NOT PUT ANYTHING IN WRITTING.
You could simply call them and tell them that you have your personal life and not to disturb you. This is enough to make her free and for you to avoid any complications.
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yknot
QUESTION: DO THEY HAVE YOUR PUBLISHING CARD?
IF NOT, DO THEY KNOW OF THE CONGO YOUR CARD WAS TRANSFERED
If you answered yes to either of the questions above and you have any reason not to do as Vanderhoven7 suggested (DAing) then HELLZ NO!
That said the fact she asked makes me think she probably got some Brother sniffing around......so she either gonna take a chance or I would be on the look out for someone staking out your place.....
If you answered no to both questions......and you are feeling benovelent ....bump into one elder when he is alone and just say she is good to remarry, that you will not be having any further discussion on this matter with anyone ever again, asked to be placed on the DNC list and walk away.
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Razziel
Don't do it. I wore the other shoe, and after my Ex left me, she OFFERED to write the elders that I was free to remarry. My dad who is an elder said don't worry, she doesn't even have to admit it, just by the circumstances the elders will decide you are free to remarry. I politely declined both, because it's NONE OF THEIR DAMNED BUSINESS. We obtained a legal divorce and that was all that matters. It's kind of funny that religions require you to get a legal marriage, but then a legal divorce isn't good enough. It's not over until someones reputation is slandered and drug through the mud. I don't care what she did to me, I'm not going to put her reputation through that, even if she no longer cares, and you shouldn't put your reputation through that either, even if you no longer care.
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LongHairGal
HI KARTER: I am no expert but my Daddy gave me good advice when I was younger: Never admit anything and never sign anything!
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karter
Thanks for all the advice.
I have NO intention of writeing a letter to the Elders.
1st off even if they did write me a letter saying they would take no action i would not belive it for one second...There could be "New lite" and things would change in a heart beat.
If i did it would show they have some power over me and they don't!!!
I'm getting on with my life and she can get on with hers and if she wants to be JW.....thats her problem not mine.
karter.
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djeggnog
@NewChapter:
LOL to Eggnoggg. Cuz that had to be a joke.
Alright.
The first husband was not a JW. He never told me what went on in his personal life after he left, and I really didn't want to stalk him. Even though I needed a scriptural divorce to move on with my life, it was not lost on me how inappropriate it would be to ask him about his sex life. I was pretty much stuck, unless I wanted to become the kind of person I despised. I could have followed him and sat outside his house and taken someone along to witness with me.
Even if a married couple aren't Jehovah's Witnesses, a marriage is a marriage. It doesn't matter how someone, who is divorced from his or her former spouse, or who is separated from his or her spouse, comes to know that the other has moved on and become "one flesh" with someone else.
While the elders are not judges, they are adults and, as adults, they are expected to know the kinds of things that typically occur behind closed doors and they do not need anyone to have to spell out any of such things for them. If, in a courtroom, a wife has had occasion to observe the car of her spouse parked outside someone's home at, say, 6:00 a.m., and she testifies to this effect, the judge knows the husband has moved on, or if, in a courtroom, a husband has had occasion to observe the car of his spouse parked outside someone's home at, say, 10:00 p.m., and he testifies to this effect, the judge knows the wife has moved on. If one of them should be dealing treacherously with the other, that is not the business of the judge, and such would not be the business of the elders either.
The only reason the testimony of a spouse isn't sufficient is where a petitioner is seeking to defend against a contested divorce against the respondent, who is seeking to divorce according to the terms of a signed prenuptial agreement where, if proved, the infidelity of the respondent would constitute a breach. In such cases, a private detective is hired, or a friend of the spouse or a neighbor is requested or subpoenaed to come into court to testify under oath to his or her having observed the car of the respondent in the lawsuit parked at a particular place at a certain time. In the majority of cases though (where prenups aren't involved), the testimony of the spouse that the divorce is being sought due to "irreconcilable differences" is sufficient for a judge to grant the petition for dissolution of marriage.
As far as I can tell, elders aren't authorized to divorce anyone, so their only interest in the marital status of anyone in the congregation is to ensure that the congregation is kept clean. Informing one of the elders of the fact that one's former spouse has left the marriage is sufficient so that should someone make inquiry as to it seems to them that such-and-such is pursing a romantically interest in someone other than his or her spouse, they can assuage the concern of anyone genuinely interested.
And how inappropriate and forward for anyone to walk up to someone that has secretly divorced his or her spouse to ask, "Why are you carrying on with this person as if you aren't already married?" While I'm sure this kind of thing happens in some congregations and I'm also certain that there are elders that would take it upon themselves to stalk someone else, no elder is called upon to engage in stalking activities nor is this something they ought to be doing.
My second husband got baptized after we married, so he was a JW at the time of our divorce. This is what the elders told me at THAT time (and remember, everything is subject to change with these loons). They said is he was not a witness, then his admission to me alone was enough to give me the scriptural divorce. No second witness needed, no letter. They explained it would be between me and Jah at that point.
A confession made to one's spouse that he or she has moved on is a sufficient basis for the innocent mate to believe that he or she has grounds for a scriptural divorce if the innocent mate has no wish to forgive the guilty mate his or her adultery. The innocent mate needs no second witness to the confession. If one of them should be dealing treacherously with the other, that would not be the business of the elders.
But if he was a JW (new cong. they didn't know the guy) then I needed the two witnesses.
Why? Obviously you didn't ask why, for had you asked the elders to explain to you the scripturally reason for investigating the veracity of your declaration -- you went to them! -- as if what you told them wasn't sufficient (btw in courts of law no witnesses are required), you would have forced them to contact the Branch, and this "morals investigation" of theirs would not even have been launched.
So I had to get him to admit to adultery (we were still legally married, but had been separated for a long time) in front of another witness. He actually did that. They tracked him down, and he admitted it to them too. From my understanding though, they never df'd him, and he never went back. I don't know why they didn't DF him, but I wouldn't trust that to be universal.
I'm sorry, but these particular elders you describe here were engaged in something akin to what the Pharisees in Jesus' day would do, and such "morals investigations" still go on in many Jewish and Mormon communities today. Why didn't they disfellowship him? Didn't you say that ex-husband was associated with a new congregation? If any action were to be taken against him, it would normally have been undertaken by the elders in your ex-husband's new congregation.
So it's a problem. Your ex may not feel like she can move on (as I felt for 5 years) and this will distress her. Yes we know it's a cult, we know it isn't right, but we also know we have all been there at one time. On the other hand, if you have family still in, you don't want to take any chance you will be shunned. So you making it possible for her to move on, would really hurt you in your personal life. That is the corner they have backed you and your ex into.
I don't see any of what you see, @NewChapter. I think I understand what things happened in your case, but the elders are human beings, they make mistakes, they often overstep their authority; I don't think what I'm saying to you here is surprising to you, but you went along with this nonsense, no doubt, because of an inordinate fear of the elders in you. The elders are to be respected for the work they do, but a "morals investigation"? There was no justifiable reason for such.
Further, this pejorative you use here -- "cult" -- is how you have explained in your mind this inordinate fear of the elders you have in your not asking any of these elders to explain to you the scriptural reasons for their questioning the veracity of your declaration to them, the basis for their needing to launch a "morals investigation," and their ensuing stalking activity, for had you done this, I don't believe this "morals investigation" would have ever have gotten off the ground.
Perhaps a cult-mentality has taken over some of the congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses, but I don't want to believe that such exists here in California. I don't know what goes on in every congregation in this state or in any other state, let alone outside of the US, but this doesn't mean that those desirous to doing God's will have been stumbled by such nonsense and this inordinate fear of the elders has led many to submit letters of disassociation or otherwise become inactive and leave our ranks due to the invasion of the family's personal affairs.
But as I recently stated in another thread, the word "cult" would aptly describe all Christian denominations since they are each of them exclusive systems that are distinctly different from other denominations, with each of them having their own religious beliefs and practices. Personally, I'm fine with being referred to as being a member of a cult, which word is synonymically the same as the word "denomination," but not when this word is used as a pejorative. I take issue with this characterization of God's organization though; just because this cult-mentality might exist in some congregations, it really exists primarily because of an inordinate fear that some or everyone in a particular congregation have of the elders, and if anyone should put up with such nonsense in the congregation without reporting it to someone outside of the local congregation where such things are occurring -- say, to a circuit overseer or by writing a letter to the Branch -- due to an inordinate fear of the elders finding out that one of you have "snitched" on them, then why should the rest of God's organization be painted with this same brush with which you have painted your own congregation where such a cult-mentality may have thrived for several years because no one has dared to report such goings-on to anyone outside of their congregation?
I've actually learned much from reading this and many other threads here on JWN, and while many of you on here, who have read my posts, have often asked me why am I here on JWN, I'm really not at liberty to say, but I can tell you that I do have an agenda, and what things I learn here are reported and analyzed by others.
[It] doesn't sound like she's ready to see this is a cult. Perhaps after some more enforced nun-hood she will start to open her eyes. Or maybe she'll do what I did, and end up with a non-JW (even though he became one afterward). She could even commit fornication herself, be repentant, get reproved, and then you could inform the elders you don't intend to forgive her and that she is free to remarry.
This is crazy talk; no one should have to live their lives in this way, least-wise Jehovah's Witnesses.
These things happen all the time. People feel pressured to have sex to change the situation they have been boxed into. Disgusting isn't it?
Well, the question that they really should be asking is, if the congregation that they attend engages in cult-like activity or the elders in their congregation seem to have a cult-mentality, why is no one reporting what things are going on in their congregation to someone outside of the congregation? No one should be 'feeling pressured' to commit fornication; such conduct dishonors Jehovah. If you believe Jehovah exists, then folks need to stop cowering in fear of the local elders. Report what things are going on in your local congregation to someone outside of your congregation, and preferably in writing. If you cannot muster up the courage to sign your name to a letter, send it unsigned, but report.
Some here on JWN may choose to believe that Jehovah's organization is a cult, but I'd like to think that some of you here know that this is not true of all congregations, but this fear of man -- an inordinate fear, a fear beyond normal limits -- has to be conquered by those in whom such dwells.
@djeggnog
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Zordino
NEVER PUT ANYTHING IN WRITING THAT ADMITS YOU DID ANYTHING. Especially to Elders. That is quite a humiliating thing to do if you ask me!
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Iamallcool
You could write a letter to the elders that you have done the deed to 1,276 different women.(Sarcastic letter) At least your ex wife will be scripturally free to remarry.