AQUAGIRL- You asked , " How many JWs actually died and were imprisoned in Hitlers rein ? " My answer, " Not enough of them. The cult wasn't exterminated. " Peace out, Mr. Flipper ( Yeah I know it sounds cold- but at least it's honest ).
How many JWs actually died and were imprisoned in Hitlers rein?
by aquagirl 29 Replies latest watchtower scandals
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dog is god
A few years ago there was the opening of the holocaust museum in Washington DC. A ton of survivors joined together. They had tables for those who were related in some way. The table for the JWs remained empty. Not one came.
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Band on the Run
I am a bit surprised by the Holocaust Museum no-show. They would have been in their persecuted glory. Am I correct that the Holocaust Museum is private or non-profit? I don't think it is National park service. Could be wrong. My mom was very traumatized by the concentration camp. She lived through it. My gm made her practice her speech to the SS. She said I knew the war was won while she recalls when the US was losing.
I've posted this tidbit before. While I was doing Establishment Clause research, my eyes saw an article about JWs and Japan before and during WWII in a law review article. I was bored with my work so I read it quickly. The article went on and on about how brilliant Rutherford was. Everything was rah rah the Borg. I expected moving examples of Japanese individuals confronted with hard choices. Regardless of how you feel about the Witnesses, it could have been stirring and emotional. No, not a single example. It must have been so difficult for Rutherford to sit in Brooklyn, NY with the entire interior of the United States on which to escape.
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dgp
James Penton has done some research into this:
Jehovah's Witnesses and the Third Reich: Sectarian Politics under Persecution
This is the book description:
Since the end of World War II, leaders of the Jehovah's Witness movement in both Germany and elsewhere have steadfastly argued that Witnesses were united in their opposition to Nazism and did not collude with the Third Reich. Documents have been uncovered, however, that prove otherwise. Using materials from Witness archives, the U.S. State Department, Nazi files, and other sources, M. James Penton demonstrates that while many ordinary German Witnesses were brave in their opposition to Nazism, their leaders were quite prepared to support the Hitler government.
Penton begins his study with a close reading of the "Declaration of Facts" released by the Witnesses at a Berlin convention in June 1933. Witness leaders have called the document a protest against Nazi persecution, however closer examination shows it contained bitter attacks on Great Britain and the United States ? jointly referred to as "the greatest and most oppressive empire on earth" ? the League of Nations, big business, and above all, Jews, who are referred to as "the representatives of Satan the Devil."
It was later, in 1933 ? when the Nazis would not accept Witness blandishments ? that leader J.F. Rutherford called on Witnesses to seek martyrdom by carrying on a campaign of passive resistance. Many ultimately died in prisons and concentration camps, and postwar Witness leaders have attempted to use this fact to assert that Jehovah's Witnesses stood consistently against Nazism.
Drawing on his own Witness background and years of research on Witness history, Penton separates fact from fiction during this dark period.
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Band on the Run
is Penton a historian who has written on other subjects? Where can I see the actual text of the Declaration of Facts. If you are opposed to Nazis, you don't write suck up letters to Hitler.
I am wondering what the percentage of JW victims was compared to Roman Catholic, Lutheran, etc. victims when size of religion is considered.
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dgp
My understanding is that James Penton has a Ph. D. in History. He grew up a Jehovah' witness, and I understand he was very much esteemed as an apologist of the Organization. My understanding is also that he was disfellowshipped, along with many people from his congregation in Lethbridge, Alberta. He also wrote the book "Apocalypse Delayed: The Story of Jehovah's Witnesses", which some people regard as the best scholarly work on the Watchtower.
My understanding is also that Hitler did not usually kill on the basis of religion. One would say that maybe many atheists were killed by him or his army, even if not on a concentration camp, since Russia had the largest number of casualties in World War II: 20 million, if we believe Russian counts.
No one mentions gypsies, and they were persecuted as well. This file describes what happened to gypsies:
According to what is written here (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/gypsies.html)
It is extremely difficult to locate the sorts of sources about Gypsies in the Holocaust of the type widely available about Jewish victims of the Nazi terror. This may reflect difference between an extremely literate culture and a largely illiterate one. It is known that perhaps 250,000 Gypsies were killed, and that proportionately they suffered losses greater than any other group of victims except Jews. The accounts here were collected, and made available on the net, from various sources.
"Gypsies," or the "Roma" as they prefer to be called, are an ethnic group which originated in India (their language-Romany-is directly descended from Sanskrit) which for unknown reasons took to a wandering lifestyle in the late middle ages. Eventually they reached Europe and became part of the ethnic mix of many countries, contributing not a little in areas such a music and the arts.
Because they were strangers to many of the people they moved among, strong prejudices grew up, and indeed continue to this day. Although they were indisputably "Aryan" according to the Nazi racial typology, they were pursued relentlessly.
Now, this should not be construed as denying that many Jehovah's witnesses did die in concentration camps, and they did die because of their religion. We should also consider that there were not as many JW's as there were gypsies or Jews. Or Russians.
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Broken Promises
Band on the Run, the "Declaration of Facts" is not made up. It's mentioned in CofC (I think) and there is plenty of information on it available on the internet if you chose to research it for yourself. (Since you claim to work in law this shouldn't be too hard for you)
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Band on the Run
I have a professional life and a personal life. This is a casual interest. I will not conduct legal research here. Your comment was snide and rude. What does my law degree have to do with the price of eggs? Why is everyone else here permitted to ask anything, including favorite pizza toppings and fave horror films but, while I'm not working, I must research, research, research.
It seems you want me off this forum. I won't do it on principle. It is a personal attack that does not address merits. This is not an academic class or a legal practice. I am allowed interests without spending every single second. Yes, your comment had zero to do with merits. You don't like what I post. Maybe I don't like what you post. Get over it.
I assume that someone here is very interest and has a ready link. Excuse me for trying to have a conversation. Crisis of Conscience is not a neutral source. I want to see the actual document. My hunch is that Ray Franz would not alter it but it is only a hunch. People who cite to it (not here, but on in a professional format) should have a better reference. If not, I research it.
This is not a law review or history journal. Jehovah's Witnesses are not a burning issue to people outside the cult. JWs are joke.
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blondie
I do believe the Declaration of Facts was printed in the 1934 Yearbook of jehovah's witnesses.
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OnTheWayOut
What a great honor it would have been to be imprisoned and killed for their beliefs in the war that would end with Armageddon.