My critical thoughts about Paul

by I Want to Believe 34 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Londo111
    Londo111

    Romans 16:1,2 says, "I recommend to YOU Phoebe our sister, who is a minister of the congregation that is in Cenchre·ae, that YOU may welcome her in [the] Lord in a way worthy of the holy ones, and that YOU may assist her in any matter where she may need YOU, for she herself also proved to be a defender of many, yes, of me myself."

    Phoebe is a Deacon and has high praise from Paul.

    Again, to me, two passages in the first Epistle to Corinth contradict...for women did pray and prophesy in Corinth (albiet with a head covering). See 1 Cor 11:5,11,13. Therefore, how in 1 Cor 14:34-35 are they told not to speak?

    The earliest manuscripts we have is two centuries from whence they were penned. Who knows what Clement and others in the growing hierarchy tweaked in the Epistles or Gospels? For 39 years I was told the New Testament, indeed the Old Testament, were transmitted unerringly from those singular authors who penned them. Now that I am lifted from the burden of that belief, I find it refreshing.

  • I Want to Believe
    I Want to Believe

    Great thoughts all around. This is turning into a good discussion! Just a couple of months ago I would have felt the need to figure out who was "right" and who was "wrong," but I no longer feel the need to be as dogmatic about everything.

    I did, though, want to respond to Slimboyfat's characterization of Jesus as a real stickler for people following him: One thing that's stuck with me on my journey out thus far is Mark 9:38[NIV]: "Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us." (..."because he was not following us."[ESV]; "...because he wasn't in our group." [New Living Trans.]) 39 "Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us.

    Normally that saying is twisted around, to say that outsiders are the enemy. But what Jesus actually says is something very inclusive, not exclusive, saying that unless you're against Jesus, you're by default on his side. So this absolute stranger casting out demons in Jesus' name didn't have to join them, he could just keep doing his own thing.

  • 00DAD
    00DAD

    IWTB: "Just a couple of months ago I would have felt the need to figure out who was "right" and who was "wrong," but I no longer feel the need to be as dogmatic about everything."

    Congratulations! You're making progress. I'm jealous. Can't wait until I get there!!!

    00DAD

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    If Mark 9:38 shows that Jesus is inclusive then what do Matt 12:30 and Luke 11:23?

  • jam
    jam

    Statements about Paul by Theologians and Bible Scholars.

    Rev. V.A. Holes-Gore

    "Let the reader contrast the true Christian standard

    with that of Paul and he will see the terrible betrayal

    of all the Master taught."

    Theologian Soren Kierkegaard.

    "Paul made Christianity the religion of Paul".

    Ernest Renan , In his book Saint Paul

    "True Christianity, which will last forever , comes from

    gospel word of Christ not from Paul."

    Will Durant in his book Caesar and Christ

    "Paul replaced conduct with creed as the test of virtue.

    It was A tragic change'".

    James Baldwin in his book the Fire next time

    "The real architect of the Christian Church was not the

    sunbaked Hebrew Jesus who gave it it,s name but

    rather the mercilessly fanatical and self-righteous Paul".

    Even Thomas Jefferson got his two cents in. "Letter to W. Short".

    "Paul was the first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus".

    The eminent Theologian Ferdinand Christian Baur

    "what kind of authority can there be for A Apostle who,

    unlike the others Apostle had never been prepared for

    the Apostolic office in Jesus own school but had only

    later dared to claim the Apostolic office on the basis

    on his own Authority?".

  • jam
    jam

    Mr Baur words , where have I heard this before, oh yes

    the Gov. Body.

  • I Want to Believe
    I Want to Believe

    "If Mark 9:38 shows that Jesus is inclusive then what do Matt 12:30 and Luke 11:23?"

    Indeed. I must admit I haven't finished researching this area, but pulling one thread unravels so many more doesn't it? Many scholars (according to Wikipedia at least ) think Mark was written first, and that Matthew and Luke both built off that. And from Acts we know that Luke was a fan of Paul's...

    But like I said, I'm not trying to be dogmatic, I'm just groping along the walls here, looking for something to hold onto. At this point, I'm not ruling out that one (or all) of the Gospels themselves could have been subject to the tampering, bias, faulty memories, and exaggerations of their writers (and rewriters) in the years after Jesus' death.

  • strymeckirules
    strymeckirules

    Peter warned you about pauls writings.

    he called him the beloved paul.

    the apostles loved their enemies.

    if you read acts, none of the apostles came to his aid when he was mobbed in the temple as a blasphemer. but the romans did....

    that tells me something.

    and the fact that more of pauls words are in the bible than jesus, but john says the librarys of the world couldnt hold all the things christ said.

    pauls a bad guy from the dark side.

  • transhuman68
    transhuman68
    pauls a bad guy from the dark side.

    LOL! Actually, they were all 1st century attention whores. The Greek scriptures contain many diverse voices, with many groups trying to publicise their idea of what Jesus meant. That's why there are 4 gospels (and more)- these are competing voices.

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    1 Thess 4:15-18 confirms that Paul was in the 1st-Century sub-group Christians who were chosen not to die (including John as well), but to live on through the centuries until the 2nd coming, which occurs 2520 years after the fall of Jerusalem by the Babylonians (whatever date you feel comfortable with--607 BCE, 587 BCE or the actual date, 529 BCE).

    Also, Paul was a eunuch (i.e. gay), which in that culture was someone who was recognized as having a natural born "gift" of not having the usual attraction for women, sparing them marriage and freeing them for a successful life is singleness (not homosexuality). But being a eunuch does predispose some to overt sexual attraction to some of the same sex. Apparently Paul's "eye" problem was a "roving eye" for inappropriate things which was observed by the congregation. I'm assuming he frequented the youth gymnasiums where the youth sparred and exercised in the nude. Those in the congregation overlooked this. Paul couldn't master it, even requesting God to remove this "thorn in his side" but God allowed it to remain to keep Paul humble since he did, indeed, have an incredible role in the gentile Christian development and he along with John in establishing the corpus of the NT, establishing Christian covenant doctrine.

    Holy Spirit pointed Paul out to me once in a public place, which at first puzzled me, since I thought the Bible confirmed that Paul had died. But after rushing home and checking into this further, it is clear that 1 Thessalonian 4:15-18 confirms he was in the group never to die. Just a quick note on that, 144,000 are chosen to fulfill the Abrahamic covenant. This represents a 1/10th remnant (Is 6:13). This requires 12,000 from each tribe. Since in Jesus' time the nation did not exist in tribal groups, but as individuals from the various tribes, individuals from each of the tribes were chosen to live down to our time and at some point marry into indigenous, isolated populations to re-create the 12 tribes of israel. Obviously if the original 12 tribes came from a single individual in the first place, then this can be done again. After all, those with children over time will eventually have a million descendants. Isa. 60:22 is the reference that common class individuals would be chosen to become the 12 tribes again and that God would "speed it up in its own time", meaning even if just one male from each tribe was chosen, especially where polygamy is acceptable, the first generation could be very large. Even today wealthy polygamists end up haivng over 70 children (like Ben Ladin's family, etc.). So in a very short time you have a pool of a couple million descendants to choose 12,000 elect. The 144,000 is just 1/10th of the total number, the gentile constitute the other 90% of 1,296,000. Anyway, point being since some from the 12 tribes needed to survive down t our time for this special purpose, a few others were also chosen which included John, Paul and Jesus' mother Mary. That's why Jesus told John to be his mother's keeper, not because he was the closest relative available to do so, but because John and Mary were never to die.

    Under the circumstances, I would venture that Paul followed Jesus' instructions and spirit of intent rather closely.

    Those of the elect in high positions, like myself, get to see or meet some of these survivors from the 1st Century, who of course, lead very secretive lives.

    Now that is what the Bible teaches and having seen and/or met all three in my position, the scriptures are consistent with my reality. It takes a lot of faith to accept this, but if you don't, then you don't believe the Bible. It is easy to believe in Armageddon, everlasting life or even the resurrection, things less miraculous than curing the aging gene, but most people's faith when faced with reality fails them. So whether my situation is real or delusional, the Bible requires us to believe that Paul never died and is still alive. He might even be logged on as someone and is reading this about himself. But again, at the end of the day, it is clear that John and Paul were central to shepherding the NT and the NT canon and thus would be a chief agent of Christ himself.

    Paul was given a huge mission by Christ, which he fulfilled. Interesting that he was "drafted" via a miracle. Amazing but very true history.

    LS

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