Supposedly God not knowing and God dying ( in some form or fashion) is akin to peeling the skin off of an Atom.
Did Jesus empty himself of all his knowledge when he came to Earth?
by garyneal 17 Replies latest jw friends
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jonathan dough
Jesus emptying Himself of His Deity when He came down to Earth as is taught by most churches.
Most Christian churches don't teach this; He never stopped being God the Son.
The divine person of Christ, even if sent by God t he Father, and even if He voluntarily subjected Himself, did not in so doing become less equal to God with respect to His essential being, nature and essence. When the Word assumed a human nature he did not cease being God, but willingly assumed a different relationship; a different grade, order or manifestation as Tertullian theorized. His incarnation and obedience did not diminish the divine essence of His being or make Him less consubstantial. The divine Person of Jesus was still fully God, who chose a veiled glory.
Christ possessed equality with God prior to His incarnation, and then for a time veiled that glory, being always God in all of the co-equal attributes, but in the incarnation never using His Godly powers to better Himself. He was fully God, fully man, God taking on the likeness of sinful flesh (Rom 8:3), not a man adding Godliness. (Strong and Vine’s, 42)
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jonathan dough
And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.”
It makes more sense if you understand that Jesus was God-man.
Christ’s Knowledge: How much did Jesus know? If he was God, why was some of His knowledge limited?
The Jehovah's Witnesses contend that Jesus could not be God because of his limited knowledge for Jesus “learned obedience” (Should You Believe, Chapter 7), did not know the precise day and hour of the Last Day (ibid.), and was given a revelation by God (ibid.). Much of the Jehovah's Witnesses’ confusion here likewise stems from their inability to comprehend the hypostatic union of the God-man Jesus (i.e., it was the created human Jesus, who was not God, who learned obedience). Nor do they understand the nature of Jesus’ three-fold human knowledge.
Theologians are in general agreement that Jesus had a) the beatific, or intuitive, vision of God; b) infused knowledge, and c) acquired knowledge (Catholic Encyclopedia, 930).
A) Vision/Intuitive or Beatific Knowledge
With respect to His vision knowledge it is taught that “Christ in His humanity, i.e., in His human intellect, from the very first instant of the incarnation, had the immediate vision of God, (ibid., 930). “[T]he two, hypostatic union and vision, of necessity go together.”
Christ’s self-awareness as a Divine Person in His human nature includes the beatific, or immediate, vision of God.
Christ’s vision of God, it is common teaching, was not comprehensive with regard to its primary object, the divine essence; it was limited because it was human. Nor does it extend, as to its secondary objects, to all that the divine knowledge comprehends, but only to what pertains to the object of God’s vision knowledge…. not to the object of the knowledge of simple understanding …; and here it extends particularly, if not exclusively, to all that pertains to His mission and man’s salvation. (ibid.)
B) Infused Knowledge
Whereas “the vision is inexpressible in human concepts (Catholic Encyclopedia, 930) and is a knowledge that ‘Christ derived from His contact with the Father,” Christ’s infused knowledge is “expressible in human concepts and words” (ibid., 938). “The distinction may be explicit in Scripture (cf Jn 7.16; Mt 11.27). Infused knowledge is similar to angelic knowledge, “Because vision knowledge is incommunicable in human terms, and Christ’s mission entailed the communication to men of divine mysteries …” i.e., salvation, “ … a communicable knowledge of these mysteries was necessary” (ibid.). Infused knowledge was required because of Jesus’ mission.
Today theologians incline to explain the extension of Christ’s infused knowledge from the purpose and nature of His mission; this was a coming in lowliness, not in glory, and did not require the knowledge of all human learning … but only of all that pertains to men’s salvation …. This was necessary and sufficient for Christ to discharge His mission.” (Catholic Encyclopedia, 938)
C) Acquired Knowledge
“The fact of Christ’s experiential, or acquired, knowledge is considered certain by theologians today,” and like all of us was “limited and restricted.” This knowledge “was perfect in keeping with the concrete circumstances of His time and place, age and mission, and His dealings with people for His redemptive and prophetic mission” (ibid.). Jesus “grew” in this knowledge (cf Luke 2.40, 52) through observation and experience and from other people (ibid.).
D) The Three Kinds of Human Knowledge were Distinct, but not Separate
“[The] three kinds of human knowledge in Christ, required by what Scripture and revelation say of the God-man, did not hinder or exclude but rather complemented one another. The three were required on different grounds and existed on different levels, while uniting in one human consciousness for the purpose of Christ’s mission” (ibid., 938, 939).
The three kinds of knowledge were the acts and possession of one human intellect and one human awareness; they were distinct, not separated. Their perfect harmony, however, remains mysterious; it is part of the very mystery of Christ.” (ibid., 939)
Some modernists place less emphasis on Christ’s vision knowledge believing that it could lead to interference and the exclusion of genuine human experience (Encyclopedia of Religion, 25).
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Band on the Run
I don't think kensosis means he ceased to be the Son of God or God. If Jesus were God, God must be impossible for humans to grasp. It is that which we are not. So I don't see Jesus as human negates his Godhood. Certainly God could make this knowledge inaccessible. If Jesus were God masquerading as a human, the cruficixion is a joke. The central part of the whole story seems to be the mystery of God becoming human. One aspect of God becomes human leaves plenty of room for God to be remain God.
I find it hard to use language to explain it. Frankly, I've studied whether the Bible is trin. or arian. The Bible is unclear. Either version is an extrapolition of scripture rather than express text. Again, decades after Jesus' death, the gospel writers were completely unconcered with Christology. The Nicene Creed was formulated at Nicea under Constantine's direction. So much of what we consider the most essential parts of Christianity are not in the Bible.
I suffered in utter agony, near death, with facial pain for many years. Perhaps b/c of Jehover God, I never could pray to God. God did not care. Praying to Jesus came naturally b/c he lived my experience and, therefore, cared. God is abstract, Jesus is near.
I don't think the apostles cared about this issue or we would have the Nicene text in the canonical Bible. You would need a legalistic formula, much as Nicene is, and then commentaries explaining its practical usage.
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ziddina
Hah!!!
"He" MUST have, because he apparently forgot about:
Diseases are caused by germs/viruses/nutritional deficiencies, instead of "demunzzzzz"...
Comas can cause a person to APPEAR to be "dead" - which makes it SO much more convenient when one tries to "resurrect" them...
For some odd reason, those "kingdoms" that "satan" apparently showed him as recompense if "jesus" would do an act of worship to "satan", were primarily the kingdoms under Roman rule or those trading with Rome...
"Jesus' " emphasis on being a good SLAVE [and his followers' subsequent enforcement of said idea] meant that he was TOTALLY UNABLE TO SEE INTO THE FUTURE, because England [which didn't exist yet, at 'jesus' time...] outlawed slavery in 1833, France [which was Roman Gaul at the time...] outlawed slavery in 1830 - though they still "practiced" it - clandestinely - until shortly before Lincoln emancipated the American slaves (in theory, at least), on January 1st, 1863.
(On the other hand, the Middle-Eastern nations from which the New Testament theology and mythology originates, were extremely backwards in their elimination of slavery. The Sultan of Zanzibar eventually outlawed slavery in HIS area in 1897, and some Islamic countries, like Sudan, still practice slavery today...)
Sooooo, the nations closest to the worship of "jesus' " Middle-Eastern god/father, were the LAST ones to eliminate slavery....
If you look at the facts, "jesus" had a VERY POOR track record of accurate information, as I've noted above...
So "he" musta' lost his "knowledge" - or never had it, in the first place...
Zid
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jonathan dough
The central part of the whole story seems to be the mystery of God becoming human. One aspect of God becomes human leaves plenty of room for God to be remain God.
I can't tell if this is what you believe, or what you claim others believe, or if you, as Anglican, misspoke. Catholics and maintstream Protestants do not teach that God became human, that He stopped being the father and became human, that the creator became the creature, if that is what you are saying. That would be heresy. Mainstream Christianity teaches that God the Son was a divine person who assumed a human nature. Furthermore, orthodox Christians - the overwhelming majority of Catholic and Protestant churches - teach that: “The humanity of Christ is a creature, it is not God” (Catholic Encyclopedia, 922). Fully God, fully man, the hypostatic union that is God-Man.
Understand that Jesus was, and is, God-man and everything fits nicely.
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OnTheWayOut
Jesus was born an ignorant innocent baby. He learned on the job and from his mother and father. His father, Carlos taught him gardening and his mother, Maria taught him how to do laundry. Carlos taught him how to fix the car and Maria taught him how to respect women. Reading and writing- he learned in a public school.
OR
the force was strong with that one and Obi Wan Kenobi started his teaching and Yoda finished it. Finally, Darth and the emperor taught him the dark side and he rejected it.
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Band on the Run
I'm sorry I forgot the poster's name. Altho I write much more clearly and concisely when I compose text and edit it, I believe I am not opague.
Anglicans teach Jesus was fully human and fully God at the same time. As Zid mentioned, Jesus was very limited in running the comos. God had to do it. If Jesus were conscious that he was God, it would be a massive joke. His suffering was real. I believe a Trinitarian conception triumphed b/c it addressed social concerns people have.
I am not Jewish so I believe in the Trinity. The JW Michael scenario is ridiculous. It demotes Jesus to a minor character. Despite repeated questions and answers from forum members, I have no clear idea what Jesus is and what was His purpose. An angel performing miracles is not news.
Walk across my swimming pool, if you are the Christ, if you are the great Jesus Christ, walk across my swimming pool. JC Superstar.
I learned only a few days ago that the Witnesses practice a bizarre form of Arianism. If anyone has read The Life of Pi, I want the story with the zoo animals. I want the biggest bang for my worship dollar so I endorse Trinity. There is no Biblical basis for either view or medium views. It has much to do with human projections and groping to understand what cannot be comprehended. A true God is inconceivable. We just utter pig language to try to describe God as close as we can. No, if they believed the Christology so important, they had a duty to write about it expressly and clearly, with no amiguity.
I believe many things just as member of a certain culture. It is the revelation to my culture. I never believe it is the only one. The universe is so vast there could be planets in C.S. Lewis who worship the same concept. Is Aslan in C.S. Lewis, Chronicles of Narnia not Christ b/c He is not named Jesus and is not human. A Lion God is cool.