Serious discussion: Why our Brain cannot take us to God

by Terry 21 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Terry
    Terry

    Understanding the difference between brain and Intellect

    What is Intellect? How is it different from the Brain itself?

    What makes a Mozart different from any talented, youthful composer in a university music program?

    What separates the ineffable talent of a Master Chef from an ordinary cook? Let’s see…

    We can place material objects on a kitchen table and count them, weigh them, measure them, hack them into smaller parts. We still have the same material objects. (Same color, same name, same aroma and flavor.) Our understanding of those objects is the same understanding anybody would have walking into the room.

    But, now, watch and observe what happens next.

    Those objects are part of a recipe: vegetables, fruit, flour, seasonings, etc. The one counting, measuring, slicing into parts is now a Chef and the people watching are ordinary people standing in his kitchen.

    What occurs will be a TRANSCENDENCE of mere objects into a delicious meal directed by the talented INTELLECT of a master Chef.

    Something above and beyond the ingredients takes place when the imagination and experience of the cook operates to create a Gestalt : the whole being greater than its parts.

    Now, observe a curious thing indeed.

    The Chef writes his recipe down and he hands it to his audience of ordinary cooks.

    Will they be able to duplicate the extraordinary meal by instructions only?

    If we say "Yes" we've never eaten any ordinary cook's common failure at a dinner table.

    Something is missing--even though evey single ingredient is there!

    What is missing is the subject of this Topic: Transcendence .

    If ordinary cooks watch a Master Chef and observe how he "thinks" as he performs the same mundane operations as they have, then-sometimes--not always--they will grasp the ineffable: what cannot be put in words. What makes the magic occur? Tasty is not what delicious is .

    Meaning what?

    It is the gulf between pretty and beautiful; between tasty and delicious; between the moment before and the moment during orgasm!

    Transcendence

    Now that we are on the same page, as it were, let's tackle the subject of GOD .

    We are physical and material living things but we can think. We are a gestalt where our cells, atoms and processes are greater THAN material things. We have brains and can think.

    When we talk about GOD we leave behind material, physical sensible "things". Our brain is of little use.

    We cross a divide using our INTELLECT and not our brain’s knowledge of material reality.

    Our vocabulary changes.

    As we cross the divide between material to spiritual we leave this world and our nouns, verbs and adjectives lose contact with what we actually KNOW. They become immaterial as well. Poetry. Impressionism. We no longer communicate with what we know as real, palpable, measurable reality. Knowledge ceases to be. Artists and composers and Poets we become.

    Transcendence into what we AREN'T requires constant reminding our brain (not our intellect) where we are. Is it a physical “place”? No. We are intellectualizing a concept. The brain is useless. i.e. The meat in our head and not the thoughts we now think.

    People who imagine God anthropomorphize God, as the artists do, of course.

    You have to think of God negatively — incorruptible, nontemporal, immaterial, immutable. You think of all of those negative words. Why? Because God is NOT what we are. And when you think of God positively, there are three positive things you can say about God: God lives, God knows and God wills.

    A blinking warning light has to flicker on signaling Transcendence from what we know to what we intellectualize. The divide is crossed. The gulf is breached.

    Whenever you say God exists, lives, wills, and knows, you have to immediately add, “but not as you and I exist, not as you and I live, not as you and I know, not as you and I will,” — that not comes in there because if you don’t do that, you are saying that the “lives” is applied univocally : i.e. in the same sense to God and you.

    In other words, to speak about God is talk about what you do NOT know. It is the voice of Intellect not brain. The Music of Mozart, the delicious and not the tasty. The laughter and not the tickle.

    Transcendance.

    Does God make this voyage to us the way we make the journey toward "Him"?

    The Scriptures of any religion are offered as proof positive that the answer is "yes".

    What must we ask?

    Would God have revealed anything to us that we could or would normally think byourselves ?

    No, it would be a waste of time, wouldn’t it? Redundancy. Regurgitation. Art. Poetry. Myth.

    So what He revealed is something we can’t really understand very well. If we did--it would be faked; trickery; already-stating the obvious with a sense of false discovery.

    The invitation was ours. Was it to ourselves or to a transcendence of Intellect?

    God reaches from immaterial divinity to mundane material humanity and it cannot produce WHAT WE would produce if we are FAKING it.

    That is, the infinite talking to the finite is an interesting kind of jump across a bridge. We may imagine it as we create Martians and Bigfoot out of sliced vegetables and broth or we may fake it by trembling and uttering gibberish. But--what we cannot do is improve the human species with it--if it ends up consisting of our own imagination. Transformation of species is the only test.

    And to what extent does this independent intellect, the mind over matter, to what extent is it critical for approaching revelation or understanding it? Well, beyond fakery, it is all we have!

    A final point to be made and then we close.

    Any of us--all of us--who cross the divide between the material world into Transcendence to touch the face of the God who lives, who knows and who wills--cannot return from this leap the same Person as we were before. If we do return the same-- all we possess is the Emotionally Overwrought inarticulate gibberish rather than transformation. Moses before Sinai cannot be Moses after Sinai if God was on that mountain.

    An ordinary cook cannot fake a masterpiece meal.

    An author of fiction cannot create characters smarter than himself. The proof is in the pudding.

    The “voice” of God would not be man’s voice.

    Intellect is our vehicle and it is not the atoms of a meat brain, nor vegetables nor poetry. Transcendence is our suspension bridge between imagination and the Divine. Do we return with mere “pretty” or with Beautiful? With “tasty” or with delicious? With the “tickle” or the laughter?

    Jehovah's Witnesses always return with the moment before the orgasm...that...never....comes...

    What have YOU returned with? Gibberish? Poetry? Doubt? Your LIFE is your proof of journey.

    Our Prayers, otherwise, are merely the sound of our own voice.

  • wobble
    wobble

    So, are you saying Jehovahs Witnesses have never had an orgasm ?

    Sorry Terry, couldn't resist that, well written thoughts as usual. How to explain the ineffable ? Difficult, if not impossible by the very nature of the task.

    You would think that a God of love would have explained Himself to us though, wouldn't you?

    (Holds breath waiting for christians to weigh in)

  • Knowsnothing
    Knowsnothing

    First off the most important question, does God exist? I think maybe. But, let's says yes for now. And, you seem to be refering to YHWH(Moses reference), so let's go with that too.

    Why couldn't our brain take us to God? Just because we are confined, limited to the 'sum of our parts' does not mean he wouldn't understand. If you accept God, you accept he created us (whether directly or through evolution... who cares) and accepts our limitations.

    "The voice of intellect, not brain." True, to the extent that how we express and understand further would help others so, those with limitations (including ourselves). But, that's the beautiful part. Remember your experience with the catatonic elderly? They needed the physical man to reach the imperceptible divine, if only for a moment. The preacher could never be God, but he did well in transmitting him, don't you think?

  • Terry
    Terry

    All I'm asserting is this. When we forget that any God we claim to know would change us were we to encounter His reality---we leave

    every other argument in the dust.

    A homeless person who tries to sell you Real Estate tips is self-testimony as to the worth of his offering.

    What makes our version of God compelling is the "light" we are shining in our own lives and not all the elegant arguments we offer.

    If we have not change within us we are tickling and not laughing. Tasting and not savoring.

    In short, we are all "Ahhh ahhh ahhh......" and no "CHOO!"

  • Knowsnothing
    Knowsnothing

    So, we must be the living proof of having had contact with God.... or what is beyond our highest conception of reality.

    Well, what of those that had 'contact' yet display no improvement? What of the homeless with an IQ of 210 that doesn't apply it?

    That falls squarely on us, don't you think?

  • bioflex
    bioflex

    I cant say i fully understand your post (not familiar with most of your english terms/words) but i get the hang of what you are saying.

  • Violia
    Violia

    I went to tech forum and see the way to pot reply is at the top now, not bottom. I still cannot see this thread and it is not just this one but others. The right hand scroll is not working. I don't think this is my computer. Anyone know what is going on? it is as if some threads are locked.

  • Terry
    Terry

    I cant say i fully understand your post (not familiar with most of your english terms/words) but i get the hang of what you are saying.

    First of all, THANK YOU for even reading this!

    I appreciate that.

    Here, in a nutshell, is what I was saying.

    1.How can we talk about, describe, explain or believe something that isn't human, material, measurable or palpable?

    2.We humans have created a special category: God. And then, we proceed to act like we KNOW what we are talking about.

    3.The best (and only) test for a REALLY EXISTING GOD would be our own transformation IF WE REALLY encountered God in a real way.

    4.Our life would change so dramatically we would be living the PROOF of our God's existence. Imagine somebody telling you they had gone to Hawaii and their skin was pale.

    5.I believe every believer DOES DEMONSTRATE who their God really is. How? By the weak, ignorant, ineffective lives they are leading!

    Want to "see" God? Look very carefully at who claims to KNOW God! You are looking at (their) God!

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    Terry,

    I understand what you are saying, but it comes down to this.

    The scientific mind cannot grasp the invisible spirit realm and its Creator because they think in terms of human logic. That’s why God says they cannot come to fully know or understand how it works. They are stuck in a rut of simplistic human minds. What they seek to find out scientifically does not exist on a chart or scale that they can ever come to understand.

    The scientist Michael Faraday is considered to be one of the greatest physicists. When questioned on his speculations of a life after death, Faraday replied: “Speculations? I know nothing about speculations. I’m resting on certainties. I know that my Redeemer lives, and because He lives, I shall live also.”

  • tec
    tec

    I thought I also got the gist of your post, Terry. I might compare it with this (from your chef/cook analogy): Someone who knows God... and those who knew ther person who knew God = not the same reaction in the people. One is changed, but the others might be mimicking the behavior and miming the beliefs in order to attempt the same e x perience... unless they also come to know God.

    Your nutshell is easier to respond to though :)

    1.How can we talk about, describe, explain or believe something that isn't human, material, measurable or palpable?

    I think it can be VERYK hard to talk about or describe with the limited/current language and understanding that we have... which is why we resort so often to metaphor (poetry, as you say). "It is like..."

    2.We humans have created a special category: God. And then, we proceed to act like we KNOW what we are talking about.

    We can't know all. But we can know all we need to know (need to know as in the practical applications in our lives)... by looking at Christ and His teachings about God. Sometimes we can know more, and get a grasp of some deeper things.

    3.The best (and only) test for a REALLY EXISTING GOD would be our own transformation IF WE REALLY encountered God in a real way.

    I don't know if its the only test... but I agree that there would be some transformation. Though it might not happen all at once. People don't show everything that is inside them... even to themselves. We hide a lot.

    4.Our life would change so dramatically we would be living the PROOF of our God's existence. Imagine somebody telling you they had gone to Hawaii and their skin was pale.
    5.I believe every believer DOES DEMONSTRATE who their God really is. How? By the weak, ignorant, ineffective lives they are leading!

    I think those two are connected. But Terry, there are people whose lives are improved drastically from knowing Christ, and so God. I guess I would ask you what you consider "change"?

    Peace,

    tammy

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