Difficulties understanding passage.

by s-c-3-1-3 57 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  s-c-3-1-3

  Hi all,

  I am reading Colossians 1:15-18, and understand it to mean that Jehovah created Jesus who then created all other things in the world, thus Jesus crall things except for God who created him. Is this correct?

  Thanks in advance!
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  sabastious

  Hello s-c-3-1-3. The way I look at it is this:

  You have the first cause. Always was, always is. What is the first thing, logically that the first cause is going to want to create? You wouldn't want to create someone greater than you for it would threaten your existence. And you wouldn't want to create someone lesser than you because it would then depend on you for existence. What that leaves is creating an equal, or son that you can hi five. The first cause cannot be the first creation. The first creation was the first cause's son. That son then created the world and then died for it in the flesh (according to Biblical Mythology).

  -Sab
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  jwfacts

  It is amusing that this Scripture is used by Arianist such as JW's to show Jesus is not eternal, and by Trinitarians to show that he is eternal.

  JW's say being the firstborn means God created him. However, Trinitarians claim that the term firstborn is used in the sense of most important, and that he cannot have been created since this Scripture says Jesus created all things.

  This is one of the Scriptures the New World Translation has had to purposefully mis-translate in order to fit their doctrine, through the addition of the word other.

  Colossians 1:15-18

  New World Translation.

  15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist,

  New King James Version (NKJV)

  15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

  Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

  15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and in him. 17 And he is before all, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he may hold the primacy:

  New International Version (NIV)

  15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
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  N.drew

  Hello s-c-3-1-3 I don't know, but I think the answer is not as easy as Jehovah-Jesus-world.

  We should see by observing the predicament that the world finds itself in (hunger, crime, war, bombs.....) that we probably do not have the correct message handed down to us.

  Oh dear. It is in regard to the forgiveness of sins we then can be sharers of the wholeness with the firstborn who is the image of The Holy ONE.

  Consider two things when aiming at understanding. The ancient pronouns were not specific like we know them.

  In regard to this scripture, do not consider it DONE as in The Creation, but consider it means BEING ACCOMPLISHED.
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  s-c-3-1-3

  Okay, but the New World Translation adds "other" things, which means Jesus was both created and the creator of all things except for Jehovah, correct?
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  N.drew

  Trying to "see" God is a sin, isn't it? You must not make an image Exodus 20:4 I think it's command number two. So then you do not need to see them creating, now do you?
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  Resistance is Futile

  On what basis does the Watchtower insert "other"? What does the original scriptures say?
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  N.drew

  http://biblos.com/colossians/1-16.htm

  http://interlinearbible.org/colossians/1-16.htm

  King James Bible
  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
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  Ding

  The original post accurately states the WT position.

  However, trinitarians point out that the Greek word translated "firstborn" also means pre-eminent and that if Christ exists before all things, then he cannot be one of the things created.

  See also John 1:3: "... without him nothing was made that has been made." (NIV). It doesn't say all OTHER things. I don't think the NWT of John 1:3 says "other," and in the Colossians 1 passage the word "other" doesn't appear in the Greek. The NWT adds it to support the Arian doctrine that Jesus is a created being.
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  s-c-3-1-3

  Well, on what basis does it change the ending John 1:1 to "a god."

  Okay, therefore, it is safe to assume that the Watchtower position is that Jesus was created by Jehovah, and Jesus created all things. Is this corret to what its position is?