Christians: Morality question regarding judge who beat daughter

by SweetBabyCheezits 24 Replies latest jw friends

  • SweetBabyCheezits
    SweetBabyCheezits

    This is old news, yes, but it raised a few questions in my mind and I'd like to ask some Christians to share their perspectives. First the video...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl9y3SIPt7o

    My questions:

    1. Would you consider her father's actions immoral?
    2. If not immoral, would you say his actions were unjust?
    3. If not unjust or immoral, how about unloving?

    Please include any principles you feel would support your answer. (ie, a loving parent wouldn't cause intentional physical pain to his or her child, the punishment must fit the crime, corporal punishment is barbaric and cruel, etc...)

    Bonus: From your perspective, how should god should deal with a parent who is physically abusive to a child?

  • SweetBabyCheezits
  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Greetings, dear SBC (peace to you!), and how the heck you been? My responses would be:

    Would you consider her father's actions immoral?

    1. I would, yes, because it's a lie (that was not a "spanking"), inhumane (I wouldn't beat a dog that way), unnecessary (while perhaps bringing some kind of sick pleasure to Daddy probably did nothing to deter daughter in the right way), instills the wrong kind of fear (of being beaten vs. disappointing a parent because you love them and/or of suffering other consequences due to whatever "wrong" was done), etc.;

    If not immoral, would you say his actions were unjust?

    2. See above, and since I must assume that Daddy is a sinner, too, in some way, size, shape, or form... I would say unjust, as well;

    If not unjust or immoral, how about unloving?

    3. See above, and... in light of my reverence for the saying "All things you want men to do to you, you must do to them," and the knowledge that no one wants to be beaten for their wrongs, including Daddy (and Mommy)... and the "security" a child is supposed to feel from a parent... I would say unloving, also.

    You can also add lacking joy, peace, kindness, mildness, goodness, long-suffering... and certainly self-control. Meaning, no "fruit" of the spirit. As a christian, then, I would have to reject it as a display of the fruit of the flesh: anger, reviling, hatred, etc.

    Of course, regardless of what I THINK... I would/could not judge this man. I would, if I knew him (and his wife SHOULD have, but, well, she apparently has the same issues)... speak to him... admonish him... and try to help him see just what took place and how "outside" of God... and God's will... it was. I would then tell him that he should try to do what he could to make it right with his daughter - explain himself... and ask her forgiveness.

    If he tried to use OT analogy, I would refer him to Christ. If he tried to used the "spare the rod" analogy on me, I would refer him to the "rod" that Christ used... and ask him which one of his disciples did he beat... even when THEY disobeyed, displayed a lack of faith, and what have you. If he tried to refer to the overturning of the tables in the temple, I would ask him if he really thought Christ lined those ones up, say, told them to "lean against the wall and turn your bottoms out toward me" and then proceeded to lash them... or whether he thought that my Lord struck out with ropes... and anyone in the way may have gotten lashed, but certainly not enough to cry out, "Please... STOP!"

    If he listened, cool; we're, golden. If not, I would ask a couple of others who knew him to go with me and speak to him, with the same goal in mind. Again, if he listened... cool. If not, I would pretty much speak to anyone else I knew, ask them to deal with it/him. If he listened... cool beans. If not... then he would be "like the world" to me. In that light, he would be at the mercy OF the world... and its "superior authorities." I wouldn't hate or shun him... but I wouldn't take a stance against such authorities FOR him ("This is OUR business, we take care of our own, etc.") - since he will have showed himself to be part of the world... then his conduct is their business... not mine.

    All of this is based on my "christianity," of course... and possibly his. If, however, he rejects those, what can I say? He's a man of the world... and so the property of world, just as if he were my brother in spirit but chose not to listen to the admonishments I and others were trying to make. Again, then, it's up to the world as to how to deal with him.

    how should god should deal with a parent who is physically abusive to a child?

    God WOULD do it in same way He wants that parent to deal with that child: in love, peace, kindness, goodness, mildness, long-suffering... and self-control. Which SHOULD result in joy: for both God (or the parent)... and the parent (or the child)... as a result of the child being "saved" (or, in the case of humans, the parent, as well). And He would do it in the same manner as I stated above: talk to the parent... indeed, vehemently admonish him, first... and if he doesn't listen (which is the case, more often than not, since people "claim" to not hear Him), have others admonish him.

    And if he still doesn't listen (which is odd, is it not, given that folks say the reason they don't obey is because they don't hear, yet hear might be some right in their faces... and still, they don't listen?), leave him to the world to deal with. As any parent who has a disobedient child (who's no longer an "infant" but at an age where they might need to be their own "master") should. If he can't learn from you... perhaps he will learn from the world. Which can be a MUCH harsher "teacher."

    Which is exactly what the Most Holy One of Israel does: first HE speaks to us... through His Son... to turn back our way. Then, He sends others to tell/remind us, because we don't/won't/can't/haven't listened to that Son. Then, He lets us go our way... out into the world. Some of us learn our lesson out there... some of us don't.

    Just curious, though: why ask "christians"? I mean, the similarities to John 8:6 aside, of course...

    Again, peace to you!

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • No Room For George
    No Room For George
    Bueller?

    Alright, I'll bite. I don't know if I'm exactly the best candidate for Christian as of now, as my faith is like a tattered flag at this point. But hey, what the heck? I'm opinionated

      Would you consider her father's actions immoral?

    Yeah, without doubt, I'm not exactly anti-spanking *, but at her age when this happened , and had it been out in the general public, he would have and should have been charged with assault.

    2. If not immoral, would you say his actions were unjust?

    see answer to question 1.

    3. If not unjust or immoral, how about unloving?

    I wouldn't go so far as to say this father didn't love his daughter, although his actions at best would be considered, misguided for lack of a better word.

    Bonus: From your perspective, how should god should deal with a parent who is physically abusive to a child?

    Considering He apears to be pretty much MIA on everything else that's screwed up on this planet, it probably doesn't matter. Granted an argument can be made that He dignifies humanity by allowing us to sort out our own problems, and doesn't hold her hand while we stumble through life. At the same time however, when we see something bad happen to a young child within the home they're being reared in, the first question we ask is, "Where was CPS?" The same can be asked of God on a daily basis I feel at times.

    On another note, and this is off topic, so I won't explore it too much on this thread, but the victim in that video, as an adult isn't exactly grade A material and I question her motives for releasing that film. One might wonder if the apple hasn't fallen that far away from the tree in her case.

    * I hate to see a bad child go unbeaten too. Oh how the 39-40 second mark where she learns how to stroke that belt just delightens me!!!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g01_MH5O_J8

  • I quit!
    I quit!

    My answer is about the same for all of your questions. The guy is a sadistic f'ing bully who should be in jail no matter what religion he claims to be a part of. The poor girl was terrified of him. No child should be that afraid of their parent. I didn't even watch the whole video. He kept hitting her. If he hit her once or twice (not as hard) and you are in the spare the rod camp I guess you could make a case for it being a for of correction but that ass kept hitting her. He must of been enjoying himself. Even if you do believe in that form of correction I would think you would have to admit that that girl was too old for a spanking and that was no spanking. On top of pain it would be humilating to be treated like that at that age.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Not to take issue with your video, dear RM (peace to you!)... 'cause we probably "come from" the same or a similar "place", you and I... but I have issues that a child even gets to that point in the first place. Sorry, but I don't understand how a 2-, 3-, 4-year old can TELL a parent what s/he will... or won't... do. Unless s/he's been allowed to... from the gate. I realize that some believe that "disciplining" (and I don't mean punishing, corporal or otherwise, but training) can "stifle" a child's growth. Yes... if that "discipline" IS actually punishment vs. training. Punishment comes AFTER a wrong; discipline (training) comes BEFORE a wrong. From a parent who (1) realized (miraculously) that a baby... was actually going to be a child/teenager SOME day... and so (2) prepared for that, by (3) staying at least two steps AHEAD.

    We were all children once, even teenagers... so not being "able to relate" to children baffles me. Some say, "Well, I wasn't like that as a child!" Perhaps, but not an excuse, IMHO. You choose to be a parent (and, given all of the ways to NOT be one, it was a choice, no matter how you came to make it)... and thus, chose all that comes with that. Including learning about the "other" kinds of children (the ones you're weren't "like")... so as to be prepared.

    Parenting is hard work. Probably the hardest a parent will ever do. But it SHOULD be, shouldn't it... given that you're basically "creating" another human being that you will one day release on the world? If that doesn't require you to bust your butt... I don't know what does. Some parents, though, just don't want to put in the work.

    Sorry, just my $0.02. Poor parenting is a serious issue very dear to my heart... due to all of the physical/emotional/mental/psychological/spiritual abuse, neglect, indifference, abandonment, and even crime I see done to children all the time in my line of work.

    Peace...

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • SweetBabyCheezits
    SweetBabyCheezits

    Doing great, Shelby, and thank you for asking! I hope life is treating you right, too. Your input is much appreciated and I'll explain more soon.

    George, of course your opinion matters, my good fellow! Many thanks for the reply. I think both of you made some excellent points here.

    Thank you as well, I quit! And I agree - this guy is a sadistic bully and it appears he was getting something out of it in some sick way. Are you a Christian, if I may ask?

  • cofty
    cofty

    I cannot begin to describe how much I want to punch is fucking face - the sadistic bastard.

    Yes the bible is absolutely responsible for this abuse

  • garyneal
    garyneal

    Well, I go to church, I pray, and I still believe in a loving God inspite of what is said in the Bible and particularly the Old Testament. So here goes.

    1. Would you consider her father's actions immoral?
    2. If not immoral, would you say his actions were unjust?
    3. If not unjust or immoral, how about unloving?

    All of the above and the one part of the Old Testament that I agree with is an eye for an eye.

    Bend over judge, bend over judge while I whip you with this leather whip! If you do not bend over, I will whip you in the back until your skin breaks! Bend over, BEND OVER!!!!

  • garyneal
    garyneal
    Bonus: From your perspective, how should god should deal with a parent who is physically abusive to a child?

    Hell is a place that people like him deserve to go to.

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