evolution question

by outsmartthesystem 165 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • binadub
    binadub

    To NewChapter:

    Regarding your point about the first cities not being in Mesopotamia, your argument is not with me, it's with archeologists and highly educated professors in the field of study of human civilization.
    Here are a few links for you (and there are many many others):

    http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/uruk/hd_uruk.htm

    http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/ED/TRC/MESO/cities.html

    http://www.allabouthistory.org/ancient-mesopotamia.htm

    I realize there are people like yourself who dispute these studies, but the majority of civilization researchers subscribe to Mesopotamia (Iraq between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, and to some extent Turkey, about 3500 BC for the beginning of cities and what has developed as "civilization."

    But I'll be glad to examine any viable contrary information that you can present.

    ~Binadub

  • stillajwexelder
    stillajwexelder

    OK - I will bite. I am still in theory a JW but keep my bullshit deflectors on maximum setting most of the time.

    Even JWs have published brochures that are a little more balanced.

    There is just way too much evidence for evolutionary forces.

    the anthromorphic principle does not hit the spot for me though

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    Regarding your point about the first cities not being in Mesopotamia, your argument is not with me, it's with archeologists and highly educated professors in the field of study of human civilization.
    Here are a few links for you (and there are many many others):

    Actually, I never said the first cities didn't spring up in Mesopotamia. History has strongly supported this, with Egypt coming in a close second. What I said was that art, religion and language did not "suddenly" pop up in Mesopotamia. Mesopotamia also meets the criteria for what we define as civilization. Agriculture--with the use of animals for the process, metalurgy, social stratifcation (which allows people to specilize in things other than obtaining food), writing, centralized cities supported by outlaying agricultural areas. Depending on who you are talking to, there are other criteria. For instance, even though metalurgy was not practiced in the new world, and animals were not used in agricultre,(although Peru did use llamas as pack animals, they could carry 100 pounds) most experts agree that S. America also achieved civilization with the Aztecs and Mayans.

    You may not want to try to educate me in this area. However, a lack of "civilization" proves nothing when it comes to evolution. We spent the majority of our history as foragers---including some very recent history. For that matter, people still live in bands and forage, but with the advent of agriculture no group purely foragers anymore and they trade goods and labor with agriculturists and horticultruists around them.

    My point was that we evolved as foragers. Because of that, we did not need to set up civilization to survive. It was only after plants were harnassed and systematically grown in amounts that superceded subsistence were we able to set up such a system. But again, we still had culture, art, religion, writing, language etc.

    So tell me this. Exactly how does the fact that civilization popped up in Mesopotamia disprove evolution? Humans existed for a very long time without civilization.

    NC

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    And Binadub, since you are so interested in ancient Mesopotomia, you may find it incredibly to interesting to read the Law Code of Hammurabi. It has remarkable similarities to the Law of Moses. I had to analyze it line by line looking for evidence of civilization. I also had to write a play telling the story of Gilgamesh---another Mesopotamian gold mine in ancient literature.

    Perhaps I did not understand your point. How exactly did the appearance of civilization disprove evolution in your theory?

    Here is a link to the law code.

    http://www.commonlaw.com/Hammurabi.html

    NC

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    A good theory is characterized by making predictions that can be disproved or falsified by observations; then a new theory follows

    I am glad you pointed out that a good theory can make predictions. Consider that evolutionists, long before we understood genes, theorized that apes and humans have a common ancestor. Along comes all this information on genes, and we learn that apes have 24 pairs of chromosomes, but humans only have 23 pairs chromosomes. Based on this new information, the theory posited a prediction: That humans have a chromosome pair that fused with another one, reducing the number from 24 to 23. This was very important to uphold the theory that apes and humans shared a common ancestor. If it couldn't be proven, then the theory may have been falsified.

    Well it predicted perfectly. Humans have a fused chromosome. Here is a video that explains it more accurately.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei3_jFE8vcc&feature=BFa&list=PL10149E21DE7BCE27&lf=plpp_video

  • JonathanH
    JonathanH

    So many things wrong that need to be corrected, from binadub's post.

    I take exception to the demand "show me one proof of evolution." Such a claim shows ignorance of science itself. You don't "prove" scientific theories. Show me one proof of gravity. You can't. You can show me something falls down, but that isn't proof of gravity. It's an obervation that things fall. Show me proof that germs cause disease. You can't do that either. You can at best show that there are specific kinds of germs present when people are sick. The "Theory of Gravity" is the explanation as to why things fall, and the "Germ Theory of Disease" is the explanation as to what causes disease. You can show ample evidence for these theories, but you can't prove them. Proof exists only in mathematics and formal logics. I can show specific mathematical correlations between mass and an objects attraction to that mass, I can use that information to predict the position of a planet, but that is only evidence for the existence of gravity, not proof.

    There is no shortage of evidence for evolution, be it genetic, fossil, geographical distribution, or morphological. There is no shortage of predictions made by evolution that are accurate and useful. All of modern medicine is based on evolution; evolution predicts archeological findings, their locations, the strata they will be found in, as well as what features can be found in the fossils. To posit that life was "poofed" into existence is to claim that whatever "poofer" did the "poofing" wanted it to look exactly like life evolved gradually over hundreds of millions of years. This is no different from the line of reasoning that suggests the devil hid dinosaur bones to confuse us. It postulated a tricky and elusive wizard that made things look exactly like there was no wizard. An explanation that conveniently works on anything no matter how ironclad the evidence is.

    Also, Stephen J. Gould did not "disagree" with darwinian evolution at all. Punctuated equilibrium was not meant to replace darwinian evolution, it was merely an inference of another pace evolution can take. Depending on circumstances life can evolve gradually, or it can evolve rapidly (such as after a mass extinction event, where numerous niches are suddenly open to be filled.) It's not a one or the other scenario, and Gould never intended it to be such. Gould was in fact extremely annoyed that creationists used his ideas to justify their beliefs when he could not disagree with them more.

    Furthermore, evolution does not say anything about Matter or life coming from nothing. This claim is insane, and I don't know how somebody can say that and think they are being unbiased about evolution. The germ theory of disease must be wrong, because there is no evidence of higgs-boson particles. It'a a non-sequiter, they have nothing to do with one another. Where matter came from is a question for theoretical physicists, and has nothing to do with biology. Speciation has nothing to do with the origin of life. You know what macro-evolution requires? For imperfect replicators to exist, where they came from has no bearing on the theory or it's accuracy. Saying that the origin of matter is a problem for evolution shows that your beef is not with evolution per se, but rather a world view that renders gods redundant. Evolution simply becomes a "catch all" term that represents the epitome of this world view.

    And also, art, math and religion didn't "suddenly" come about with civilization either. They all were gradually developed, even prior to civilization. What we think of as math today, did not exist five thousand years ago. Even things that we take for granted like a number system where our symbols do not physically represent the concept of a quantity, or the value of a symbol varying depending on it's place in a series of symbols, or even decimals, these are all relatively recent developments. For thousands of years only the most primitive and rudimentary of arithmetic and geometry existed. There are still primitive tribes that exist today that don't even have numbers. These things didn't just "suddenly" come about.

    If somebody accepts micro-evolution, and they accept that the earth is old, then they accept macroevolution. The onus would be on them to explain why things suddenly "stop" evolving right before the genes of a population become so different that it forms a pre/post-zygotic barrier resulting in speciation, and why this wouldn't happen over an over again. The onus is on them to show what the immutable unchangeable "hippo" part of the "hippo" genome is, and why every other part of their genotype can change, and why that can have drastic effect on their phenotype (the physical appearance), but there must be some eternal "hippo" part of the gene that makes it a hippo, and forever a hippo. These things don't exist.

    The Jehovah's Witness Wolf E. Lonnig (who the watchtower references whenever they need somebody with a degree in biology to say something about evolution, but they will never disclose that he is a witness,) tried to come up with some ridiculous theory of elastic genetics springing back to their original state. This was roundly derided and quickly dismissed (except by the ID community of course.) All he did was selectively breed plants to a produce a certain phenotype, and then slectively breed them back to the original phenotype. It was so transparent it was disgracefully bad, the Max Planck institute (where he worked) said they had nothing to do with the study, and Lonnig "retired" from the institute shortly there after. It was especially dumb that he used plants as an example of his elastic genetic "theory" (it wasn't a theory, even though he termed it one. It was a hypothesis, and a poor one at that.) Plants can evolve rapidly through a process called "polyploidy" that is completey irreversable, and definitely would not just "spring back" to what it used to be, namely because polyploidy adds chromosomes to the genome, and forces speciation within a single generation. It's widely observed, and often used in plant breeding. Any first year biology student would know this, which is why it was so ridiculous that he was using experiments using plants to "disprove" speciation.

    Which leads to the next innacuracy. Evidence of speciation is abundant. I have a hard time finding a single accurate paragraph in that entire post. Take that as a lesson, Outsmartthesystem. The detractors of evolution largely rely on misinformation, inaccurate representations of the science, and just plain ignorance of the topic or science in general in order to make a case against evolution. They will frequently claim that they have studied the topic extensively, but then they tip their hand by saying something like "evolution can't explain where matter came from." Then you realize that no amount of evidence will convince them, because their problem isn't with evolution. Their problem is with a world that wasn't specifically formed by god, where humans aren't god's special little creation. Go read books by respected evolutionary biologists like Jerry Coyne or Richard Dawkins. They will be eye opening, and fascinating. I recomend "Why evolution is True," "the greatest show on Earth", or "The Ancestors Tale." It will be an immensely enlightening and fascinating journey.

  • glenster
    glenster

    For current articles, put "evolution" into the search engine:
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/search/?keyword=evolution
    http://www.scientificamerican.com/search/?q=evolution

    At Science Daily, also click the "Fossils and Ruins" tab.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

    Trail of 'Stone Breadcrumbs' Reveals the Identity of One of the First
    Human Groups to Leave Africa
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111130171049.htm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_earth

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_history_of_life

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recorded_history
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Mankind
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_evolution

    For God, I recommend "How to Think About God," Mortimer Adler. The basic God concept doesn't require fiddling with findings about evolution.

  • gubberningbody
    gubberningbody

    Step 1 - Don't take any advice from anyone who's posted in this thread.

    Step 2 - Ask yourself why it matters what the truth is about this question.

    Step 3 - Go back to step 2 because you seriously need to think about that.

    Step 4 - Why are you here? Are you deaf??!!! Go back to step 2?!!!

  • poopsiecakes
    poopsiecakes

    marking because JonathanH's post is awesome

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    I know Poopsie. His post really ripped this open in the center.

    NC

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