by wobble 128 Replies latest watchtower bible
I posted the above before reading page 2 of this thread. So I missed Tec's claim that there is evidence for God as well as xchange's excellent information about what qualifies as evidence and what does NOT.
So that said, if you have evidence for god, bring it. What is the evidence for god's existence?
I left the lights of my car on all day..... When I get back to my car I "want" to believe that it will start again.... Is it smart? is it stupid? is wishful thinking. Sometimes we want to believe in things not because thats the smartest thing but thats what we wish it was.
We all fall pray of that. Some believe in "love" as a magical thing. Karman, soulmate, "everything happens for a reason", everything is gonna ok, lets just pray,, i have you in my thoughts, send me your positive energy.... etc etc etc
I ve seen lots of intelligent people even Atheists and Skeptics say in this board "I have you in my thoughts" when someone is suffering.... or in pain and not necesarily to create the placebo effect.
"I hope you get better" those actually nothing "practical" other than the power of autosuggestion but hardly anybody would say it for that reason.
We are strange creatures still in very primitive state....
Let the ones who want to believe, believe what they want..... is the universe in their head, not in yours. Just be aware what other people might have inside their heads.
my evidence for God is this.... "he speaks to me"
i am gonna lose 10 pounds i am certain of it.... i can feel it.
By the way I wish to all of you a good day.
I fully admit and accept that my faith in Christ and God is NOT based on proof or even evidence ( that would hold up in court).
I do, however, believe that I TRY to put my faith forth in a rational and intelligent manner.
I am not sure why it seems to be so accetable to call believers irrational and ignorant or even worse really.
I don't know any atheist that likes to hear that they don't believe because they're not intelligent enough or they don't understand or are irrational, so I am not sure why they would believe that calling others that is correct or why they feel compelled to do it.
An honest question for you former JW's that are now atheists:
Do you view your "former" selves as that irrational, ignorant and unintelligent?
The fault lies with the framing of the arguments and evidential reasoning being employed.
You may have to elaborate on this because I don't know what you mean. The fault of belief lies with the framing of the arguments and evidential reasoning being employed? How so? (if that is what you mean)
Can we perhaps agree then, that belief in something with no proof, cannot be termed a rational belief ?
We could I suppose. But that would make a lot of beliefs irrational, that are also commonly accepted. The big bang theory for instance. There is evidence that leads us to that, but not proof. Intelligent/sentient alien life in the universe. (no proof of that) Scientists base their theories on evidence... not proof. At least to start with, and some of those theories are not proven in their lifetimes, right?
I don't think irrational is the right word. Faith is belief in something that is not yet proven; but being assured that it is true and one day will be proven so - based on evidence. It is not blind (though it can be). (Mad, I have listed evidence that lead me to faith - and some that leads others to faith, but I will again for you after this post)
Irrational
: not endowed with reason or understanding
:lacking usual or normal mental clarity or coherence
: not governed by or according to reason <irrationalfears>
Reason:
to think or argue in a logical manner. to form conclusions, judgments, or inferences from facts or premises. to urge reasons which should determine belief or action.
Logic the process of deriving the strict logical consequences of assumed premises. the process of arriving at some conclusion that, though it is not logically derivable from the assumed premises, possesses some degree of probability relative to the premises. a proposition reached by a process of inference. Peace, Tammy
An honest question for you former JW's that are now atheists:
Do you view your "former" selves as that irrational, ignorant and unintelligent?
Irrational - yes definitely.
Ignorant - again yes. I was willfully ignorant of so much science because I preferred to believe the things that reinforced my beliefs.
I don't know if I was any less intelligent but certainly allowed irrational delusions to overule my intelligence.
Okay. My evidence.
Christ.
Christ is all the evidence I personally need, but there is more. There is truth in the things Christ taught - be word or deed. That grants credence to all of what He taught, and not just some - including His teachings on His Father. There are multiple witness accounts to Christ and God - some in the bible/some outside of the bible. There is a spiritual need that many possess... that causes them to seek out the source of that need. There is the fact that we have this belief in a creator (s) to begin with - that every civilization ever has believed, and many of those beliefs are similar (indicating a similar source/or similar understanding of truth). Why evolve or develop this need if there is no such thing?
There is also personal evidence - hearing, understanding, strength, courage, peace, patience... all of the things promised; that are granted to me and others. There are also answered prayers (which again is personal evidence, but no less evidence, at least for me). Asking and receiving.
I don't e x pect anyone to take my word for anything, especially not based on my personal evidence. But my faith is not based on nothing. It is based on something... or rather someone. It is based on Christ.
You want to be able to falsify, x change? Prove Christ never e x isted. I might still believe in a creator without Christ... maybe... but I wouldn't know anything about him/her/it.
Peace,
Tammy
Tec: You may have to elaborate on this......(snipped)
You have to take my post in it's entirety. The reason that many arguments fail from the point of view of the atheist is because of faulty reasoning. Again, refer to the FiLCHeRS in my previous post.
If there is a positive claim made and the supporting evidence, arguments etc. conflict with the FiLCHeRS, then there is good reason not to accept the claim. It’s not a matter of wanting to only hear the evidence we want to hear, it’s about a systematic approach of validating a positive claim.
Religious belief is very SUBJECTIVE:
Atheists are where thay are because they do not see any evidence of a creator. This is not a belief system, it is conclusion based on logic.
I agree, and then there is skepticism. But it is subjective. If someone has never seen God, I suppose it is logical to some degree to doubt he exists. But at this point, especially post 1947 where the elect interact with holy spirit, or in my case where I have had more direct interaction with Jehovah, my "scientific" and logical conclusion is just the opposite. We have direct proof of the living God of the Bible.
I tell atheists this: Just because God hasn't appeared to them or isn't talking to them, doesn't mean he isn't appearing and talking to others. But that is also a moot point. God proves himself to those he wants to know him, but doesn't bother with those he doesn't want to prove himself to at this point. Per Bible prophecy, Jehovah will make a name for himself at Har-mageddon, but until then, the reality of God depends on whom he wishes it upon. The logic and "reality" of the elect is different than that of the non-elect.
So God is real and the Bible and Bible prophecy is 100% true. The sheep will understand this and accept it. But the "goats" will find every excuse to buck against it. When Christ arrives, he doesn't try to convince the goats of anything, he just separates them from the sheep.
On the other hand, I can look up into the heavens and see the solar system and admire its beauty and precision. I then read in the Bible where the purpose was for timekeeping and I observe that function. That is, case in point, ancients observed the position of planets on certain days of the month, and we today can calculate precisely the year of that observation. So the solar system is very much a precision instrument of timekeeping. It is hard for me to look at the solar system or even the Moon and think it wasn't designed vs. that it just happened by accident. So a powerful creator makes sense. Everything is so beautifully designed, it makes logical sense someone planned it. So the universe and everything in nature shouts "intelligent design" from my perspective which fits the idea of a God. But someone else can imagine with a trillion years that everything here could have occurred by accident, so they don't see evidence of God. So I think the universe is worthy of a powerful God explanation, whereas someone else observes an incredible accident of coincidence. That's just two different opinions. But if you're of the elect (1,440,000; 144,000 are natural Jews) and you experience spiritual things, like holy spirit or in my case, actually seeing heavenly things like Christ, Jehovah and Satan, then I'm in a position to confirm the reality of God as far as my personal experience goes. But I'm unique and can understand and even validate some of the doubts of others.
LS
