Thanks for that Leolaia I didn't know that. I read a lot of Rutherfords books during my last year in the borg, he was certifiable.
RUTHERFORD VIEWS ABOUT CATHOLISM WERE JUSTIFIED
by Sobeit 19 Replies latest social current
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Band on the Run
I would say that the Pope acted as a puppet for Hitler. Many Catholics ended in concentration camps. It is a large religion with many followers. There is nothing express in Roman Catholic teaching that supported Hitler. Pius was a very bad pope. As others remarked, the pope does not define Roman Catholicism. Heck, am I bound by Rutherford b/c I was born in. I pray not.
The virulent antiCatholicism on this thread troubles me greatly. State what Pius did, state what theologians did or did not do. Blanket hatred is ridiculous. I know much has been written about the Protestant response to Hitler. If Pious erred so did many Protestant leaders. If every Christian actively opposed the Nazis, the Holocaust could not have happened. There is plenty of blame to go around.
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cofty
The virulent antiCatholicism on this thread troubles me greatly. ....Blanket hatred is ridiculous.
Hatred - where? I don't hate any catholics but I think the church is disgusting. Google "Ireland catholic child abuse" and take your pick of 2.7 million hits.
How can somebody who escaped a cult like the Wathctower not apply the same standard to an organisation that stinks of corruption and hypocrisy like the Catholic church? It is staggering to me that any ex-jw can be anything other than repulsed by it.
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still thinking
I am more than happy to to criticize Protestant leaders too...that does not lessen catholic involvement..it just makes religion look bad...which it is
The pope is the Leader of the Catholic church...he does define catholicism...thats his job...thats why he is voted in...thats why he gets the big house...it's his responsibility..he IS the holy father in Rome..big boss man...the man who determines what catholics believe or don't believe..the one who changes the rules to suit himself. ie...not going to confession before receiving sacraments is a sin...now...not so much...interesting how a sin becomes not a sin at his say so.
When Rutherford was alive...yes...you were bound by his teachings...or you would have been disfellowshiped wouldn't you? He determined what being a JW was...in the same way that the GB decides what a JW is now...aren't we supposed to agree to do what they say when we get baptised? Aren't we supposed to bend to their will. Same thing...different flavour.
I really don't get why ex JWs want to support catholism so much...is it just because the WTS said it was bad so now we'll say its not just to spite them? Just to now do the opposite of what they say...well I;m sorry, but I don't see that as a good reason to support Catholism...I was born into the Catholic religion...and I feel the same way towards the pope and the catholic heirachy as JW's feel about the WTS. They tell people how to live their lives...abortion. contraception, divorce etc etc, I wonder if you are allowed to receive sacraments now if you're divorced, you couldnt before...it would be a sin...probably not anymore.
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shepherd
"The virulent antiCatholicism on this thread troubles me greatly."
Either you forgot to take your pills today or you took too many. It is not virulent antiCatholicism to point out that the Pope was strangely quiet before and during WW2 and that Austria was a strongly Catholic country and that although a few did resist, most did not. Even the current Pope was in the German military during the war.
Germany however was about 50% Catholic and so I agree with you that "there is plenty of blame to go around."
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Band on the Run
The title does not state that a specific pope is viewed as aiding the Nazis. Frankly, I don't think it is an accurate statement. I believe what is established is that he did nothing, absolutely nothing, to stop Nazis. There is no denying that Christianity is antisemitic soon after Jesus' death. yet I believe Jesus died a Jew. The Pope does not determine individual Catholic belief. I am not a Catholic expert. To blindly condemn all of Catholicism based on one's person inaction is not sound. It is sheer hatred. I take issue with many Catholic doctrines and its patriarchal hierachy.
I stand for my self before God. Rutherford's statements would never be considered justification to ignore the express words of Jesus. Never. Not in my family of origin. Most Witnesses that I knew who were savvy would never confuse Rutherford with Christ. It is a large leap.
Complexity bothers people. Long ago the world consensus was that the pope had a duty to act to end the slaughter. He should have made a forceful presence when the first discriminatory laws were enacted. Time and again millions of people died. He may not have had the clout but we will never know. His inaction was noted by American Catholics at the time. I grew up hearing stories of this pope being proNazi. Many German Catholics resisted Hitler. More Catholics resisted than Protestant.
As humans on earth, how does one condemn another religion? Former JWs should know that truth is elusive. Let him who is without sin throw the first stone. Pope John Paul II definitely took steps to correct the WWII stance. Do we uphold the Amish example? the Lutheran? the Shinto?
Every religion has scum and saints.
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Band on the Run
The CIA relocated many Nazis.
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glenster
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_Pope
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Hitler%27s_PopeA timeline of the JWs leaders regarding war, propaganda, persecution,
politics, etc., is at the next two links.
http://glenster1.webs.com/gtjbrooklyn6.htm
http://glenster1.webs.com/gtjbrooklyn6a.htmIt includes many of Rutherford's statements about the Pope and Catholics.
Like all JWs leaders, Rutherord was always concerned to make a (bogus) case
for being the spokesperson for a literal 144,000, including by propagandizing
against whoever disagreed, such as mainstream Christianity, the Pope, etc. This
was particularly true during Rutherford's leadership, during which time he got
the JWs to provoke by spreading propaganda with sound trucks and even got Hitler
stirred up against them, which led to fights and deaths. If you have a related
interest, such as the "Hitler's Pope" book, Rutherford isn't a reliable research
source. -
PSacramento
You cannot divorce the catholic in the pew from the atrocities of the organisation they support. Roman Catholicism is a despicable religion that makes the borg look tame by comparison
Catholicisim is NOT JUST Roman Catholicism nor does the RCC speak or represent all catholics.
As a Catholic ( universalist) I accept that ALL are under God's grace and that all have hope of salvation and do NOT recognise ANY denomination or any group to have "authority" over me, other than Christ.
Sure all catholics get lumped in with the RCC and I can understand that, I am just showing that is NOT correct.
The Vatican and the RCC are in need a a HUGE change, the corruption is appaling and the whoel concept of the RCC heirachy needs to be abolished and, to be honest, criminal and civil suits SHOULD happen.
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james_woods
This is one of the most bigoted posts ever, IMO. The actual relationship between Pope Pius and HItler is complicated. Yes, there was colloboration but there was also resistance. German Protestants were no angels. Is this a troll post?
Absolutely correct - and the post serves no purpose except to render an opinion of hate.
Besides the fact that Rutherford himself was at first pro-Hitler, at least until Hitler started imprisoning the bible students over the conscription issue.
I don't recall Rutherford or later Watchtower writers making much of any protest over the treatment of the Jews during the holocaust, either. They have famously taught that the witnesses were somehow "more righteous" than the Jews, because the witnesses were persecuted over strictly religious issues and not over race (whatever that is supposed to have meant).
And finally, there are many heroic stories of individual Catholics who aided the victims of Nazi persecution.